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TNFF's analysis is more in line with reality, even if it has it's flaws.
Oh dear.
I posted sources, showed the error in the math, and yet you still seem incapable of admitting that for the typical student a single bad exam will not significantly effect the over all average. It's inane.
Most states require 4 years of English, 3-4 years of math, 2-4 years of PE, 2-4 years of science, 3-4 years of history, 2 years of language, and electives. Most states are over 23 Carnegie units aka classes and that is just to graduate, not college prep will push it closer to 30.
Now the math.
Most schools have some sort of board policy preventing any grade lower than 55 or 60 going into the final grade. Additionally, the vast majority of schools limit the total weight of both the mid term and final to 20% for most classes. Even if we allowed a zero for a midterm, even if there were only 20 courses and even if you had a perfect 100 in every other class. Limiting midterms/final weight to 20% of a grade means at the end of 4years a zero on a midterm would take your average from a 100 to a 99.5. Do you need me to type out the math? Since multiplication is commutative 20% of the entire school average would be combined midterm final. Twenty courses means that 20% is 20 midterms and 20 finals, making any one of those zero literally takes a half a percent.
Maybe your school was unique; midterms and finals worth a third of the grade each, only 20 course to graduate, and had 95 A but if it did it is so far outside the norm that it hold no comparison to the typical American high school which is what we are talking about here. And at the vast majority of US high schools, a single blown midterm or final has almost no effect on the overall average.
You made an assertion that grades don't impact GPA, even a zero. I showed an example, using the criteria at the high school I attended that contradicts your assertion. And I think my math was pretty obvious because it reflects how the grades were assigned and GPA calculated. As for the number of classes, they arrived at it thusly: Seven periods per day. One was study hall, one was a misc activity period. That leaves 5 per day for classes. All classes were one year classes. So 5 per year. High school was four years. Therefore 20 classes. All classes were 1 point. It may not be what you use or what you like. It just was.
No. The high school that I attended, and most others I am aware of, only gave grades of A, B, C, D, or F. Later on they added B+ and C+, but many teachers refused to give those grades. No percentage grades. Same in college. Not sure how colleges using GPA in any way makes my point moot. My point was that when different teachers use different grading systems, the grades do not accurately assess the student's ability.
Who cares about your anecdotal evidence when we have actual sources?
The most common system in US secondary school is percent based.
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LKB: how can you say my point is moot? And, since you are such a stickler for grades accurately assessing performance, how can you agree with the above situation, when 4 identical students get 4 different grades?
Because it is the exception not the norm.
For someone claiming to be an engineer you seem to know very little about the credibility, or lack there of, of anecdotal evidence when compared to actual sources.
Add to that the vast majority of common core classes have grading policies dictated by board policy rather than teacher whim, and your endless burning of the strawmen becomes even more obvious. Shall we follow to this to its illogical and inevitable conclusion? I once heard a rumor that some teacher just throw darts at a dartboard to assign grades. Or how about the classic urban myth of weighing papers? Or if that doesn't strike your fancy, how about teachers making up grades based on zodiac sign?
Some of us prefer to deal with reality instead of endless made up scenarios.
You made an assertion that grades don't impact GPA, even a zero. I showed an example, using the criteria at the high school I attended that contradicts your assertion. And I think my math was pretty obvious because it reflects how the grades were assigned and GPA calculated. As for the number of classes, they arrived at it thusly: Seven periods per day. One was study hall, one was a misc activity period. That leaves 5 per day for classes. All classes were one year classes. So 5 per year. High school was four years. Therefore 20 classes. All classes were 1 point. It may not be what you use or what you like. It just was.
And given that it is not even remotely close to the norm how should your unique school, which does not reflect anywhere near most schools, be used to justify retesting?
Just to be clear I said the "average high school". Your school is clearly unusual in the extreme. Therefore my original claim stands, that for the average student at the vast majority of schools bombing a single midterm or final would have no statistical effect on their average.
More strawmen. I never said teachers were infallible. Do you just feel the need to make things up because you can't support your point?
My point is that the grading system that I was referring to was not "my" system. It was a system used by a teacher that I had years ago. If you don't like it, take it up with him, not me. But until now, you and IvoryTickler both had the attitude that the teacher is always right.
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Deserve? How does taking a test over and over again equal = deserve? Kids who get good grades the first time they take a summative assessment "deserve" those good grades. Those who need to see an exam before they are capable of aceing it, do not "deserve" an A.
I keep giving the same scenario (which happened to me many times) but you keep ignoring it: The teacher says the correct answer is B. I very clearly chose B. Teacher marks it wrong. And it makes the difference between one letter grade and another. Teacher refuses to correct it. Why do you call me a grade grubber for wanting that grade fixed?
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You have yet to show the flaw in a system that allows for multiple, quality formative assessments and a singular summative. All you have done is whinge about what you deserve rather than what you earn.
How am I "whinging" (is that even a word??) by wanting the correct grade?
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The irony is that those who rely on "do overs" instead of hard work to do well tend to fall apart when the rubber meets the road. Additionally, it suggests an inability to see the forest for the trees. Learn the material well, and the grades follow. Simple. Retesting is just to make people feel better, you have shown nothing to suggest it increases mastery in a subject at al.
You still have not answered 2 questions:
1. Why do you support IvoryTickler's policy, which blatantly favors weaker students?
2. Why do you support the "second grade option" that my college offered, when it blatantly favored and even rewarded weaker students, and even encouraged students to game the system by refusing to show up to a final exam?
3. If you argue that learning should be about learning and not about the grade, then do you feel that college admissions and scholarships should not be based on grades? If not, then how should they be based? Perhaps a random lottery? Somehow I don't think you'd like that either.
I posted sources, showed the error in the math, and yet you still seem incapable of admitting that for the typical student a single bad exam will not significantly effect the over all average. It's inane.
Tnff was using a real grading system. You were using a fantasy grading system that most schools do not use, despite what you seem to think.
The most common system in US secondary school is percent based.
That was not the system that my school used. Nor did they use the fantasy system of not giving 0s on finals.
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Because it is the exception not the norm.
I disagree. Every example I gave (except #4, which was based on an actual professor that IvoryTickler claimed to have had) was based on actual teachers that I (and probably everybody else) has had. I'm sure everybody has had the teacher who did everything entirely by the book. I'm sure everybody had the old school teacher who ignores any innovation of the past several decades. And I'm sure everybody had the teacher who very blatantly favored certain students over others.
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For someone claiming to be an engineer you seem to know very little about the credibility, or lack there of, of anecdotal evidence when compared to actual sources.
On the other hand, I have no doubt that you are a teacher, since you have the typical teacher attitude where you think that you are better than everyone else.
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Add to that the vast majority of common core classes have grading policies dictated by board policy rather than teacher whim, and your endless burning of the strawmen becomes even more obvious. Shall we follow to this to its illogical and inevitable conclusion? I once heard a rumor that some teacher just throw darts at a dartboard to assign grades. Or how about the classic urban myth of weighing papers? Or if that doesn't strike your fancy, how about teachers making up grades based on zodiac sign?
Those aren't too far from the truth. When I was in college, for one of my labs, we had a TA who knew nothing about the subject matter, and very little about the English language. For our first lab, he gave everybody ridiculously low grades, completely ignoring the content, and only based it on how closely we followed his form, which was never given to us. After that, he made us all an agreement that for all lab reports he will give everybody a random grade between 90 and 95, as long as we all agreed not to question why we got a 90 when somebody else got a 95. Obviously, everybody agreed to that, seeing what the alternative was.
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Some of us prefer to deal with reality instead of endless made up scenarios.
Everything I have posted was an actual scenario that I have dealt with. None of it are made up scenarios.
And given that it is not even remotely close to the norm how should your unique school, which does not reflect anywhere near most schools, be used to justify retesting?
Just to be clear I said the "average high school". Your school is clearly unusual in the extreme. Therefore my original claim stands, that for the average student at the vast majority of schools bombing a single midterm or final would have no statistical effect on their average.
TNFF's high school is more "average" than the fantasy high school that you keep talking about.
My point is that the grading system that I was referring to was not "my" system. It was a system used by a teacher that I had years ago. If you don't like it, take it up with him, not me. But until now, you and IvoryTickler both had the attitude that the teacher is always right.
BS. Just because I am pointing out how you are endlessly wrong when it comes to this thread does not make me right because I am a teacher. You're arguments lack logic and evidence. That is also not because I am teacher but because you lack logic and evidence when it comes to this topic.
Additionally, if you cannot differentiate between two posters in a thread, you should stop visiting forums.
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I keep giving the same scenario (which happened to me many times) but you keep ignoring it: The teacher says the correct answer is B. I very clearly chose B. Teacher marks it wrong. And it makes the difference between one letter grade and another. Teacher refuses to correct it. Why do you call me a grade grubber for wanting that grade fixed?
It is ignored because it is a strawman. Do you know what a strawman is? It is a logical fallacy where you pretend two things are equivalent, when they are not, and that showing the flaws in one, makes the other flawed.
You're "issue" above, is not a reason to retest, it is a reason to make sure that teachers correct mistakes. Retesting to fix a mistake is stupid. It is like using a machete to open an envelope.
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How am I "whinging" (is that even a word??) by wanting the correct grade?
Look at your dozens of posts for examples of whinging. One would expect an engineer to know how to look up words, like whinge, that they do not know.
1. Why do you support IvoryTickler's policy, which blatantly favors weaker students?
I don't I never said I did. Please show a single post where I agreed with her policy. I'll wait as I suspect it will take some time to find something that doesn't exist.
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2. Why do you support the "second grade option" that my college offered, when it blatantly favored and even rewarded weaker students, and even encouraged students to game the system by refusing to show up to a final exam?
I don't I never said I did. Please show a single post where I said that. I'll wait as I suspect it will take some time to find something that doesn't exist.
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3. If you argue that learning should be about learning and not about the grade, then do you feel that college admissions and scholarships should not be based on grades? If not, then how should they be based? Perhaps a random lottery? Somehow I don't think you'd like that either.
I accept that testing and the corresponding assigning of grades is the most efficient and depending on the subject matter best measure of learning.
You keep attempting to assign me motives and beliefs I have never stated anywhere nor believe in. Why are you doing that? How about you try to deal with what people actually say instead of what you FEEL they say?
TNFF's high school is more "average" than the fantasy high school that you keep talking about.
I posted a comprehensive, national level summary from a survey of secondary education completed in the last 5 years. It is literally the definition of "average".
Are you fibbing about being an engineer? You seem to think anecdotes outweigh evidence. Bizarre.
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