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View Poll Results: Should test retakes be allowed in high school?
Test retakes should not be allowed 35 62.50%
Students should take the entire test again for full credit 5 8.93%
Student should take only the parts they missed for full credit 2 3.57%
Students should take the entire test again with grades averaged for both tests 8 14.29%
Students should take only the portions they missed but get half credit (same as averaging) 6 10.71%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-27-2016, 12:47 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,672,880 times
Reputation: 20851

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Tnff was using a real grading system. You were using a fantasy grading system that most schools do not use, despite what you seem to think.
Lets see which of us is a teacher? Which of us actually reads board policy? Which of us has posted links to actual studies as evidence.

It is literally called the no zero policy and it is such a wide spread phenomenon it is been the subject of dozens of articles in the general press. The no zero policy is even being extended to regular grades. So please, enough with terms like "fantasy" when you are clearly the one uninformed about the subject. And don't worry I will google that for you....

For students’ sake, say no to ‘No-Zero Policy’ on grading | Catalyst Chicago
No-Zero Policy To Be Implemented In South Carolina Schools | The Daily Caller
Teachers Divided Over Controversial 'No-Zero' Grading Policy
When It Comes to Grading, Is '50' the New 'Zero'? - Teaching Now - Education Week Teacher
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Old 09-27-2016, 02:36 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 7,004,385 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
It is ignored because it is a strawman. Do you know what a strawman is? It is a logical fallacy where you pretend two things are equivalent, when they are not, and that showing the flaws in one, makes the other flawed.

You're "issue" above, is not a reason to retest, it is a reason to make sure that teachers correct mistakes. Retesting to fix a mistake is stupid. It is like using a machete to open an envelope.

I agree that what I was posting had nothing to do with retakes. But I was explaining why I resent the fact that you labeled me a "grade grubber".

Quote:
Look at your dozens of posts for examples of whinging. One would expect an engineer to know how to look up words, like whinge, that they do not know.

Whinge | Definition of Whinge by Merriam-Webster

When you have to resort to loaded terms, it means you have no valid argument.


Quote:
I don't I never said I did. Please show a single post where I agreed with her policy. I'll wait as I suspect it will take some time to find something that doesn't exist.

Ok, I'll admit that I was wrong there. What I thought happened was that you got involved in the thread so that you and IvoryTickler could gang up on me. I admit I was wrong on that count. So now maybe you can admit that you were wrong in labeling me a grade grubber.


Quote:
I don't I never said I did. Please show a single post where I said that. I'll wait as I suspect it will take some time to find something that doesn't exist.
I took your lack of response on that topic to mean agreement.

Quote:
I accept that testing and the corresponding assigning of grades is the most efficient and depending on the subject matter best measure of learning.

But then you have to accept that as long as college admissions and scholarships are tied to grades, students are going to fight for the grade that they deserve. Instead of labeling them "grade grubbers", maybe just admit that there are some flaws in the system.

Quote:
You keep attempting to assign me motives and beliefs I have never stated anywhere nor believe in. Why are you doing that? How about you try to deal with what people actually say instead of what you FEEL they say?
The irony is that we aren't even really disagreeing. I said that there needs to be a consistent policy that treats everybody the same. My problem is with policies such as allowing weak students retakes but not strong students, or allowing the cheerleading captain a retake but nobody else. Your no retakes policy fits my criteria, as long as it is applied to everybody, and as long as grades accurately measure performance, and as long as there is some method in place so that a single grade does not disproportionately impact the final grade. Maybe those last 2 points are where we disagree.
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Old 09-27-2016, 02:37 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 7,004,385 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I posted a comprehensive, national level summary from a survey of secondary education completed in the last 5 years. It is literally the definition of "average".

Are you fibbing about being an engineer? You seem to think anecdotes outweigh evidence. Bizarre.
No. I just feel that my own real-life experience takes precedence over what an ivory tower academic says.
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Old 09-27-2016, 02:38 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 7,004,385 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Lets see which of us is a teacher?

So now you are back to the attitude that being a teacher makes you better than me?


Quote:
Which of us actually reads board policy? Which of us has posted links to actual studies as evidence.

It is literally called the no zero policy and it is such a wide spread phenomenon it is been the subject of dozens of articles in the general press. The no zero policy is even being extended to regular grades. So please, enough with terms like "fantasy" when you are clearly the one uninformed about the subject. And don't worry I will google that for you....

For students’ sake, say no to ‘No-Zero Policy’ on grading | Catalyst Chicago
No-Zero Policy To Be Implemented In South Carolina Schools | The Daily Caller
Teachers Divided Over Controversial 'No-Zero' Grading Policy
When It Comes to Grading, Is '50' the New 'Zero'? - Teaching Now - Education Week Teacher
Again, I'm talking real life, not theory. I have never seen such policies used, and neither has TNFF.
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:04 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,672,880 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I agree that what I was posting had nothing to do with retakes. But I was explaining why I resent the fact that you labeled me a "grade grubber".
Shall we try again?

Please show me where I labeled you a "grade grubber". Because, once again, I did not. More imaginings from your brain.

In fact the only time I use the term was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
.......The reality is kids don't fall into two simple groups, high achieving and the not. Two common groups, those who work hard, earn high marks the first time, or if not they realize where they went wrong and improve for the next time. And the ones who think of themselves as high achieving, but often have less than stellar marks and place the blame every where but where it really lies. Those kids are frequently "grade grubbers" and will do everything from try to negotiate grades, complain about someone breathing to hard so they couldn't concentrate, to begging for multiple retakes on every assessment. Luckily those kids are few and far between, but yes, they are annoying.
and then as you tend to do, turned something that was clearly not "labeling you" into:



Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
And, I never did anything that you are saying, but my teachers still did not like me. You would have probably considered me a grade grubber

So I specifically acknowledge I am talking about a small subset of students, which you acknowledge you are not similar to, and then decide I have labeled you something I did not.





Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
When you have to resort to loaded terms, it means you have no valid argument.
When you have to make things up, over and over again what does that mean in regards to an argument? Oh wait, I know this one, its called a strawman and is a logical fallacy. This is actually getting monotonous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Ok, I'll admit that I was wrong there. What I thought happened was that you got involved in the thread so that you and IvoryTickler could gang up on me. I admit I was wrong on that count. So now maybe you can admit that you were wrong in labeling me a grade grubber.
LOL! Really?




Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I took your lack of response on that topic to mean agreement.
Over and over again, continually making things up.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
But then you have to accept that as long as college admissions and scholarships are tied to grades, students are going to fight for the grade that they deserve. Instead of labeling them "grade grubbers", maybe just admit that there are some flaws in the system.
How dumb are you going to feel when you find that I labeled you a grade grubber literally no where?

Deserve is an interesting term you have latched onto, about as appropriately as the word "label". If you need to take a test over and over again to get an A, you don't deserve one. Retesting doesn't give you the grade you deserve, it gives you the grade you want. There is a difference and just because you are incapable of seeing that someone who takes a test once and gets an A, has shown greater learning of that subject than someone who takes the same test 10 times to get the same grade doesn't mean there is no difference.



Quote:
The irony is that we aren't even really disagreeing. I said that there needs to be a consistent policy that treats everybody the same. My problem is with policies such as allowing weak students retakes but not strong students, or allowing the cheerleading captain a retake but nobody else. Your no retakes policy fits my criteria, as long as it is applied to everybody, and as long as grades accurately measure performance, and as long as there is some method in place so that a single grade does not disproportionately impact the final grade. Maybe those last 2 points are where we disagree.
I couldn't careless at this point about your opinion. You have shown yourself to lack logic and reason, to make up things (not once or twice but over and over), and to think your anecdotal evidence outweighs actual sources. You have lost the right to think your opinion is particularly justified at all and the fact that we agree on anything is nothing more than coincidence.
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:14 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,672,880 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
So now you are back to the attitude that being a teacher makes you better than me?
LOL!

You have 4 years of high school experience as a student. I have that, plus 10 years as a high school teacher. Who has more first hand experience? Based on your reasoning, since I have spent years in the same room with engineers, I must have the exact same level of expertise on the field of engineering as they do right?




Quote:
Again, I'm talking real life, not theory. I have never seen such policies used, and neither has TNFF.
OMG? You haven't? Well given your extensive experience in high schools, what is it two between you? How is this possible?

If only there were sources of information which summarized what is the most utilized grading systems in the US. We could call them education journals and people could quote them when people think their singular experience defines the entire world.

I bet neither you nor TNFF have seen the Dalai lama, he is still real. I bet you and TNFF have ever given birth, it still happens. I bet neither you nor TNFF have ever been to the moon yet it is there. I would bet the list of things you haven't seen or experience is long and varied, but the most people who have limited experience in an area, like you don't presume that their experience is the only one or even the most common one. Dunning-Krueger maybe?
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:25 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 7,004,385 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Shall we try again?

Please show me where I labeled you a "grade grubber". Because, once again, I did not. More imaginings from your brain.

In fact the only time I use the term was:

and then as you tend to do, turned something that was clearly not "labeling you" into:

So I specifically acknowledge I am talking about a small subset of students, which you acknowledge you are not similar to, and then decide I have labeled you something I did not.
I had posted that teachers, such as IvoryTickler, dislike high achieving students, such as myself. You then disagreed, and you go into the type of "high achieving" students that you don't like, accusing me of being part of that group, and including the term "grade grubber". Admittedly, it was indirect.

Quote:
When you have to make things up, over and over again what does that mean in regards to an argument? Oh wait, I know this one, its called a strawman and is a logical fallacy. This is actually getting monotonous.
You just keep using the terms "strawman" and "logical fallacy" anything I say anything that you don't agree with.

Quote:
Deserve is an interesting term you have latched onto, about as appropriately as the word "label". If you need to take a test over and over again to get an A, you don't deserve one. Retesting doesn't give you the grade you deserve, it gives you the grade you want. There is a difference and just because you are incapable of seeing that someone who takes a test once and gets an A, has shown greater learning of that subject than someone who takes the same test 10 times to get the same grade doesn't mean there is no difference.
Again, I am not talking about retakes. Again, I am talking about a scenario where, on a multiple choice exam, the teacher says the correct answer is B, and I very clearly have B marked, but the teacher marked it wrong, and it makes the difference between 2 letter grades: it causes me to get a B, even though it would have been an A if the exam was properly graded. Do you agree that I "deserve" an A in that case? Why am I a "grade grubber" for wanting that corrected? This has nothing at all to do with retakes. If you feel I don't "deserve" an A in that case, then please explain why.

Quote:
I couldn't careless at this point about your opinion. You have shown yourself to lack logic and reason, to make up things (not once or twice but over and over), and to think your anecdotal evidence outweighs actual sources. You have lost the right to think your opinion is particularly justified at all and the fact that we agree on anything is nothing more than coincidence.
If you couldn't "careless" [sic] about my opinion, then why do you keep responding to me? Who gives you the right to decide whose opinion is justified and whose isn't?
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:25 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,672,880 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
No. I just feel that my own real-life experience takes precedence over what an ivory tower academic says.
What a hypocrite you are! You call me an "ivory tower academic", while knowing nothing about me, where I have worked, or where I teach. Then you complain about being called names you weren't even called.

Anyway, just for clarities sake, I have worked as a teacher for a little over 10 years, I worked in my industry for twice that.

Are you sure you are an engineer? One would think engineers know how little anecdotal experience compares to actual peer reviewed lit. Why do you think your experience as a student means you know more about teaching than the people who do it for a living? Do you think people who make drones as a hobby know more than aeronautical engineers?
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:26 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 7,004,385 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
LOL!

You have 4 years of high school experience as a student. I have that, plus 10 years as a high school teacher. Who has more first hand experience? Based on your reasoning, since I have spent years in the same room with engineers, I must have the exact same level of expertise on the field of engineering as they do right?
Just because you have 10 years of experience as a high school teacher doesn't mean that you are any good at it. In fact, you are probably just like IvoryTickler, who became a teacher because she couldn't hack it as an engineer, even though she obviously hates teaching.
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:27 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,672,880 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
you go into the type of "high achieving" students that you don't like, accusing me of being part of that group, and including the term "grade grubber". Admittedly, it was indirect.
Post the bolded or retract the claim.

Show where I labeled you a grade grubber, a positive claim or retract.

Anything else is intellectually dishonest.
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