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If the point of the test is to figure out what a student has learned then no.
If the point is the school actually caring whether a student has mastered or is proficient at a subject or section then yes.
I say the retake should be worth 85% max and the final score should be the average. I say 85 because it gives students the best chance to pass but imposes a strict enough penalty to be a wake up call.
Say a student takes the first test and gets a 70 decides to retest and gets and 82 they get a 77, pass. They have been offered the opportunity to pass in fair way. The student gets a 50 then realizes they need to get with it and pulls out an 85. They get a 67.5 not a pass but it gives them a much better chance to pass the course by doing better in the future.
The retake should never be worth the full amount of the first test. Tests should never be graded on a curve.
If the point of the test is to figure out what a student has learned then no.
If the point is the school actually caring whether a student has mastered or is proficient at a subject or section then yes.
I say the retake should be worth 85% max and the final score should be the average. I say 85 because it gives students the best chance to pass but imposes a strict enough penalty to be a wake up call.
Say a student takes the first test and gets a 70 decides to retest and gets and 82 they get a 77, pass. They have been offered the opportunity to pass in fair way. The student gets a 50 then realizes they need to get with it and pulls out an 85. They get a 67.5 not a pass but it gives them a much better chance to pass the course by doing better in the future.
The retake should never be worth the full amount of the first test. Tests should never be graded on a curve.
I agree with you. I like the idea of averaging the tests. I think that would give students some incentive to learn it the first time. As things are now, procrastination is the name of the game. The prevailing attitude (remember students only have to take the questions they got wrong again in my school) is I'll take the test, get what I get right and then I'll know exactly what to expect on the retake where I only have to do the ones I got wrong. They do not treat the test seriously the first time because they know they get a second chance and they only have to do the ones they got wrong on the second test. That's the part I really disagree with.
Well an A should mean they mastered 93% (or whatever the % is in your school) of the material shouldn't it? If retakes are part of the landscape at a school they should be allowed for all students, not just the bottom. As I said earlier, I rejected a school with retakes for my own child. I think school should teach accountability to students. However, if retakes are allowed they should be allowed for ALL students.
What is the point in allowing a student who scored say 87% a retake to get a higher grade when they've already demonstrated mastery with their original score. Retakes for them is just grade inflation and devalues grades for the school. Eventually, colleges will figure out that A's in my school mean nothing because of the push towards standards based grading. What they mean is that EVENTUALLY the student did enough work, one piece at a time, to get an A. It does not mean they turn in A level work or score A's on tests. I wonder what happens to these students when they get to college. Or are colleges going this way too? I have heard that a local community college now offers retakes on finals but that's unconfirmed rumor. I hope it's not true.
What does it say when my school goes from 8 or 9 valedictorians to 20+ because of retakes? If we were passing more students I'd be all for this in spite of tripling the number of A's given but we aren't. We're FAILING more students. No one takes the test seriously the first time and the kids at the bottom just can't learn the material they didn't learn the first time in the time between the test and the retake. While I've never been a teach to the bottom teacher, I'm not seeing this as working for anyone. I give out A's that really aren't A's and then fail twice as many students.
As I said before, the only good thing is no one yells at me anymore about grades. They don't ask for different teachers thinking their child will do better with a different teacher. Admins don't come to me wanting to know why so many students are failing. I just wish I felt this was actually good for the students. There has to be a better way.
Life is short. You do not even need the class. 90% of the crap out their is just the test and mid-terms and that is it. You need to force yourself to learn
Life is short. You do not even need the class. 90% of the crap out their is just the test and mid-terms and that is it. You need to force yourself to learn
You're missing the point. It's not about WHAT you learn. It's about HOW you learn. Every subject you study trains your brain to work in a different way. It is the brain you are growing learning what you learn that is important. Yes, my students will forget most of the geometry I teach them but they will retain the ability to create a logical argument and use it the rest of their lives. There are some answers you just can't google like which house should I buy, is it time to put the dog down, which car should I get, is it time to have kids....etc, etc, etc...
It's not about the content. It's the ability to think that matters. Look at the science tests. Only 48% of the test is content and that's broken up as 12% chemistry, 12% physics, 12% earth science and 12% life science. 52% of the test is can you use data to make a decision. It's not about what we teach. We use what we teach to teach students how to think scientifically in this case. Knowing this to be the case, I really have to ask why retakes? From where I sit retakes are not helping my students to learn how to learn. They are learning to work the system to get their A with a minimal amount of effort. Others are procrastinating and failing as a result. I'm not sure there are any winners here except me. Parents don't complain, admins don't complain and the grading is easier. It's either right or wrong. I don't have to mess with partial credit because they can fix it on the retake.
Just wanted to toss a poll out about retakes. This will be a multiple response poll so choose all that are applicable.
Choices will be:
Test retakes should not be allowed
Students should take the entire test again for full credit
Students should take only the part they missed the first time for full credit
Students should take the entire test again with test grades averaged
Students should take only the part they missed the first time for half credit (same as averaging)
What is the point in allowing a student who scored say 87% a retake to get a higher grade when they've already demonstrated mastery with their original score. Retakes for them is just grade inflation and devalues grades for the school. Eventually, colleges will figure out that A's in my school mean nothing because of the push towards standards based grading. What they mean is that EVENTUALLY the student did enough work, one piece at a time, to get an A. It does not mean they turn in A level work or score A's on tests. I wonder what happens to these students when they get to college. Or are colleges going this way too? I have heard that a local community college now offers retakes on finals but that's unconfirmed rumor. I hope it's not true.
What does it say when my school goes from 8 or 9 valedictorians to 20+ because of retakes? If we were passing more students I'd be all for this in spite of tripling the number of A's given but we aren't. We're FAILING more students. No one takes the test seriously the first time and the kids at the bottom just can't learn the material they didn't learn the first time in the time between the test and the retake. While I've never been a teach to the bottom teacher, I'm not seeing this as working for anyone. I give out A's that really aren't A's and then fail twice as many students.
As I said before, the only good thing is no one yells at me anymore about grades. They don't ask for different teachers thinking their child will do better with a different teacher. Admins don't come to me wanting to know why so many students are failing. I just wish I felt this was actually good for the students. There has to be a better way.
As I said earlier, I am not a huge fan of retakes. However, if a C student is allowed to use a retake to get a B, then a B student should be allowed to use a retake to get an A. I think that the rules should be the same for all students. Letting the C student get a B with a retake contributes just as much to grade inflation as letting a B student get an A with a retake. I think that if retakes are allowed they should be allowed for everyone. I am ok with them not being allowed but the rules should be the same for every single student.
I have two sons in college right now (Case Western and Belmont University). Neither have professors who allow retakes, except in cases where the entire class fails an exam. My younger one said that his entire class did poorly on their midterm and his professor offered to allow them to write a paper on how the readings in the class tied in to the theme of the class (it's a seminar). The assignment was offered and students could recover up to half the points they missed on the exam by writing the paper. Things may be different at community colleges but I don't think most universities have gone to allowing retakes in the general sense (meaning they are always available).
My youngest goes to a competitive high school. There is one valedictorian and one saluatorian for a graduating class around 275. They don't do multiples.
I think like most policies this one is helpful in some ways and hurtful in others. I am not a big fan but if the criteria to get an A is that a student master 93% of the material then all students who master 93% should get an A. I don't think it is any more unfair that a student uses a retake to raise their grade from a C to a B than it is to raise a grade from a B to an A.
Also, to be clear, the full test should be retaken with different order and 10% of the questions should be new.
To me testing should be about retaining general knowledge.
As an engineer I can safely say there are in fact concepts from every general or high-school class that every adult human should be able to recall instantly simply using their brain. If the purpose of the test is to create a solid foundation of knowledge, I'm all for it. Questions should solidify key concepts by asking it over and over but in different ways.
One problem I see in industry is basic Algerbra. I'm not talking more advanced concepts. I'm talking if a=bc then b=a/c and c=a/b that is the number one concept every adult should know. I use algebra pyramids on a regular basis, engineers have tens of them ingrained into their brains but the average 18-21 something can not solve a simple problem. We have a metric conversion question on my companies test, we give the metric conversion factor 3 questions back as 2.54 for cm but then we ask the question mm in the next couple questions. People rarely get it right. If I can't depend on you to pay attention long enough to figure out a multi-step process that simple, how on earth can I have you editing programs that cut $4000 dollar slabs of titanium (yes, 4000$ just for the material). In Europe the average 18-21 year old is programming a computer or cnc machine, building a robot, writing code or 3D modeling and doing it with proficiency. In the US the average 18-21 year old can use the internet at a basic level and considers themselves a techie. That's why we have engineers in the use doing the same work that hauptschule graduates do in Germany.
I could go on about a study done of American high school graduates that transferred to German schools and did terrible, but I won't, because I'm digressing from the original topic.
One of my biggest pet peeves regarding testing, is that here, we go over everything regardless of it's relative importance.
For instance, my son brought home a take home test... Is it really a test if it's take home? give me a break. Anyway, that test had him plotting inequalities on a number line. I'm sorry but that has very little relevance to the real world, I have never used that concept in 20 years, 5 years of developing advanced prototypes (my current job), which is pretty brainy, difficult work. What we end up doing is filling our kids heads with random garbage equally with important concepts and then they only recall bits and pieces of the important stuff when they should have total recall on the important stuff.
The state of education is sad in this country. Retakes of only the questions missed and able to earn full credit, wow.
Test retake shouldn't be allowed in High schools because then in the first test students will not give their 100% thinking that nothing will happen as we will be getting the next opportunity also.
This is exactly what I'm seeing. In theory, I agree that it's that student's learn not when student's learn but I'm finding that retakes simply result in procrastination. I do not think they are learning more because of retakes. In fact, I think some kids are learning less because they put off learning too long.
This is exactly what I'm seeing. In theory, I agree that it's that student's learn not when student's learn but I'm finding that retakes simply result in procrastination. I do not think they are learning more because of retakes. In fact, I think some kids are learning less because they put off learning too long.
It's not retakes that are the problem. It's how the retakes are structured coupled with the attitude of your student demographic. As posters pointed out, there are a variety of ways to manage retesting so that it benefits the student and educator and they've seen those benefits themselves. If it's not working where you are, it may just need to be handled differently rather than eliminated.
As for the demographic, if you're faced primarily with the type of student who doesn't bother trying to do well just because they know they can take the test again, that's not an issue that's going to be addressed by disallowing it.
Students who care about learning and performance care about learning and performance period. Whether they have one shot or ten makes no difference. If anything, they try harder because they take pride in not being one of the students who needs a retake.
Students who base how much they try on whether or not they can do it again, however, have a fundamental issue with their attitude towards learning and performance that carries over into every aspect of their education, not just testing.
If we were to design education around that type of student, there would only be one type of academic work that's appropriate: pop assignments. Tests, essays, and other projects that the students have no advance notice of having to complete. They just walk in and every day is a different graded assignment on the spot.
Because you can make the procrastination claim about anything a student can anticipate. Making a paper due next Friday instead of immediately causes students to put off reading the book because they know they have a whole week to worry about it or go looking for something to copy and can mess around hanging with their friends until the last minute.
Placing major tests worth the largest percentage of their grade at the middle and end of the term causes students to procrastinate because no matter how much they suck throughout the year, they know they'll be fine as long as they do well on those.
If the majority of your students are like that and poor performers on top of it, retesting is a poor fit for them in particular, not a poor fit for students at large.
I'd be hard pressed to believe that students who made a habit of excelling across the board suddenly pull crap grades now all because they can take a test a second time. I'm more inclined to believe those students had a lazy attitude to begin with and allowing them to retest made it more obvious.
If you truly feel that this change has made your students lazy and dropped their grades, you have the power to modify what else you're doing in the classroom to make up for it. When the ship goes down, you can either focus on why you object to it sinking or focus on how to save the people on it.
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Poll on retake tests
