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Old 03-06-2015, 05:37 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
5,725 posts, read 11,663,108 times
Reputation: 9828

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There is a blindness necessary, whether or not intentional, not to see that public schools are a different paradigm than the private sector, and should not be held to the same expectation. But as I mentioned above, schools are indeed being privatized currently, and it ain't pretty. In a generation, people are going to be wondering how we let it happen. If you are simply proposing vouchers, address the questions in post 11. Otherwise, this is an aimless discussion.

The blueberry story is an old one, but it's still a good parable.
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Old 03-06-2015, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Vermont
11,754 posts, read 14,565,163 times
Reputation: 18502
Okay, I've read through three pages, twenty-one posts so far, and the thread and the OP's original idea are as free of content as they were before Post # 1 went up.

I'm out.
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Old 03-06-2015, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Volunteer State
1,243 posts, read 1,140,531 times
Reputation: 2159
  • Did you ever meet those people that speak eloquently, sound well-informed, and used $5 words when conversing (as if they would make good British newspaper editors)?
  • Have you ever experienced a person who can converse for 15 minutes non-stop - without them ever actually saying anything?
  • But, when they converse with those who are actually knowledgeable and experienced in said topic, they show up as frauds?

Anyone getting the hint here?

To the OP - in terms of the topic, you sound very intelligent... but not very smart. As been asked before - many times now - what, specifically, would you do to remedy the situation? Your elegant soliloquies are nice, but completely useless.
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Paradise
3,663 posts, read 5,648,099 times
Reputation: 4865
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
If you'll re-examine my original post, you'll note that I did not propose an Amendment per se; I cited the Bill of Rights
The title of your thread is: "Freedom of Education" Amendment -- An Idea Whose Time has Come.

So, yeah, you kinda did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
because I believe that the current struggle over control of the educational system represents a Constitutional issue parallel to the framers' desire to separate church and state 250 years ago. And neither side seems interested in reducing Federal power and influence; they only want it restructured to suit their purposes.
Thomas Jefferson desired public schooling. I'm not sure about the others, but it would not surprise me if they were on board with it. They knew, after all, that one of the most effective ways to enslave a populace was to keep them illiterate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
With regard to specific proposals, that's what I mostly want to get from the other participants here. The current system of financing is wreaking havoc on many small property owners. And the proposed "remedies" usually concentrate, rather than reduce the centralization of power.]
We've had the discussion on the gathering of the centralization of power here. Teachers, by and large, do not like it. We, however, have no influence. None.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
If you don't like my response, perhaps it's because you stand to benefit by continuation of that trend.
Ah, the old ad hominen attack.

Do you realize how much credibility you just lost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
The principal difference between the private and pubic sectors; the former grows via increased efficiency; the latter never "solves" a "problem" because it would find itself without a purpose; better to aggrandize the "problem" in hopes of a bigger staff and a bigger budget.
You mean like Nortel, Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Atari, and Circuit City? Or maybe you prefer the business model of Foxconn who is wildly successful, but is rife with horrid working conditions to point of driving their employees to suicides in a slavery-like work environment? Don't think you can get around purchasing Foxconn products should you be so inclined. Just about every piece of electronic equipment that you own has a component manufactured by Foxconn. They do it so inexpensively than no one can compete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Almost any proposal made by those concerned over this concentration of power is going to immediately be seized upon by the public education advocacy and turned into a plan which would augment, rather than streamline, the bureaucratic colossus. That's a natural consequence of a "marketplace" where those who can take their busuness elsewhere, and those who can't are torn between the conflicting desires for greater security and an affordable baby sitter / day care.

But the present cycle of tax - spend - bureaucratize - repeat can't continue indefinitely.
You just came for a fight/argument. The big, bad teachers symbolize the government you hate. We are the face of all that is wrong. In your mind we have tenure, work six-hour days and nine months a year, have Cadillac benefits, and are union thugs. We are just babysitters and daycare. Did I miss anything?

This is hack material. You are not the first, or even the 50th, person to sashay in here and tell us how awful we are. If you are upset over all that is wrong with public school education, then go to the powers that can change it and present your "persuasive" argument.
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,214 posts, read 11,245,484 times
Reputation: 20827
Quote:
Originally Posted by maf763 View Post
Vouchers:
Where will that money come from?
Will current private school students also be eligible for it?
Will it be means based?
Will all students receive the same amount, regardless of disabilities?
Who will keep an eye on the fly-by-night organizations that will crop up just to collect vouchers from unsuspecting families?

The devil is in the details.
OK - everybody seems to think some comprehensive, one-time solution is in order: obviously, that's not possible, but here are a few simple observations.

My principal goal is to reduce the degree to which the public education advocacy can inject its own agenda into the public schools and use them as a "bully pulpit" of sorts. (And the "too big to fail" mentality seems to be every bit as much in force here as at Goldman, Sachs.)

My personal background is in transportation -- and I've seen a couple of instances in which extensive, and immovable institutions have fallen upon hard times. City transit systems, a handful of canals like the Erie (now operated at a loss by the New York Thruway System), Amtrak and (at one time) about one-third of the freight railroads all fell into this situation.

If a threatened enterprise (or any form of economic activity) can transition from private to public operation, and back again, the roles can be reversed. It's not "public participation" I have a problem with -- so long as it's limited in scope and, as I've advocated for other parts of the social "safety net", kept answerable to local control.

The objective here is to break up the large, centrally-administered city systems which offer the greatest potential for abuse; most of our population is dispersed enough that choice between neighboring programs shouldn't be that expensive to offer and implement. I can't speak for every state, but here in Pennsylvania, publicly-funded transportation to private schools has been mandated for over forty years; re-orienting it shouldn't be that big an obstacle, since most of the facilities, staff and "rolling stock" are already there.

Will it be "means-based"? In the sense of making sure that everyone gets access to the system, yes, but a lot of that argument seems to be used to turn "equality of opportunity" into "equality of result" -- a central tenant of the so-called "progressive" mentality which, I believe, lies at the center of much of the problem.

We've heard many objections raised -- quite a few of them from the public education advocacy -- about wasteful military programs. This is a point with which I am in basic agreement, and I cannot think of a reason why some of those funds can't be used as a one-time measure to bridge the gap.

As for the "fly-by-night organizations", an ugly parallel exists with the food-stamp program -- no reason to believe that parallel reforms couldn't be used to police both food stamps and educational vouchers.

Over the past twenty years, we've seen huge disruptions in our economy -- 9/11. Katrina, and the breakdown of some huge sectors within the private economy; automobiles and banking, to name just two. It is time for a similar rebuild of our educational system, not by tampering with the curriculum or attempting to apply measures of "performance" that don't work, but by returning the options (and responsibilities) to the "consumer" where they belong.

Admittedly, there are no easy answers, but what is currently being offered isn't working, and it's the possibility that the nanny-state mentality which has become more prevalent within education will continue to grow, and seek more "help" from Big Brother/Sister which disturbs me the most. I want the mechanism for that power-grab impeded, and the issue does have implications touching upon basic Constitutional law -- just as Brown vs. Board of Education did so many years ago.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 03-06-2015 at 10:39 AM..
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Old 03-06-2015, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
5,725 posts, read 11,663,108 times
Reputation: 9828
I appreciate the elaboration, and have some responses below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
OK - everybody seems to think some comprehensive, one-time solution is in order: obviously, that's not possible, but here are a few simple observations.

My principal goal is to reduce the degree to which the public education advocacy can inject its own agenda into the public schools and use them as a "bully pulpit" of sorts. (And the "too big to fail" mentality seems to be every bit as much in force here as at Goldman, Sachs.)

Again, it is not the NEA or teacher unions that are setting the agenda.

My personal background is in transportation -- and I've seen a couple of instances in which extensive, and immovable institutions have fallen upon hard times. City transit systems, a handful of canals like the Erie (now operated at a loss by the New York Thruway System), Amtrak and (at one time) about one-third of the freight railroads all fell into this situation.

I've ridden mass transit, taken Amtrak, and been on the Erie Canal, but that doesn't mean I know much about it. I would listen to you about transportation, not tell you why you are wrong about it. I don't have the knowledge to do that. Some of the reason for the pushback you are getting on this thread is that you don't really understand education and how it works.

If a threatened enterprise (or any form of economic activity) can transition from private to public operation, and back again, the roles can be reversed. It's not "public participation" I have a problem with -- so long as it's limited in scope and, as I've advocated for other parts of the social "safety net", kept answerable to local control.

Again, education is a different animal, and not really comparable to other enterprises.

The objective here is to break up the large, centrally-administered city systems which offer the greatest potential for abuse; most of our population is dispersed enough that choice between neighboring programs shouldn't be that expensive to offer and implement. I can't speak for every state, but here in Pennsylvania, publicly-funded transportation to private schools has been mandated for over forty years; re-orienting it shouldn't be that big an obstacle, since most of the facilities, staff and "rolling stock" are already there.

I'm in PA as well, and I can tell you that dispersing choice between neighboring programs would not be easy to implement. A highly rated suburban district does not have the space, infrastructure or desire to accept a bunch of kids from a struggling urban or rural district.

Will it be "means-based"? In the sense of making sure that everyone gets access to the system, yes, but a lot of that argument seems to be used to turn "equality of opportunity" into "equality of result" -- a central tenant of the so-called "progressive" mentality which, I believe, lies at the center of much of the problem.

I meant would everybody receive the same voucher amount, regardless of ability to pay. If yes, how do you feel about paying people making well into six figures thousands of dollars to send their kids to nice schools? If not, how are people going to feel about the 'wealth redistribution' to lower income people, many of whom may already be receiving government assistance. Remember the 47% brouhaha from the last election cycle? Plus, there is the very real situation that some kids require more expense to be educated - kids with genuine learning, emotional, physical, and physiological issues. A voucher based on average per-pupil spending is going to leave a lot of kids out of an opportunity to get an education.

We've heard many objections raised -- quite a few of them from the public education advocacy -- about wasteful military programs. This is a point with which I am in basic agreement, and I cannot think of a reason why some of those funds can't be used as a one-time measure to bridge the gap.

Political gridlock would be one reason.

As for the "fly-by-night organizations", an ugly parallel exists with the food-stamp program -- no reason to believe that parallel reforms couldn't be used to police both food stamps and educational vouchers.

This means increased government regulation, something that seems to be at odds with your username status.

Over the past twenty years, we've seen huge disruptions in our economy -- 9/11. Katrina, and the breakdown of some huge sectors within the private economy; automobiles and banking, to name just two. It is time for a similar rebuild of our educational system, not by tampering with the curriculum or attempting to apply measures of "performance" that don't work, but by returning the options (and responsibilities) to the "consumer" where they belong.

On this, I agree. The expanded role of the federal government in public education over the last couple of generations has caused more harm than good.

Admittedly, there are no easy answers, but what is currently being offered isn't working, and it's the possibility that the nanny-state mentality which has become more prevalent within education will continue to grow, and seek more "help" from Big Brother/Sister which disturbs me the most. I want the mechanism for that power-grab impeded, and the issue does have implications touching upon basic Constitutional law -- just as Brown vs. Board of Education did so many years ago.

Again, I agree with your premise, but if you think that teachers a) don't oppose the intrusion of federal and corporate interests and b) can influence them, then you just don't understand the state of public education today. Maybe a new Brown is needed, somebody to sue the federal government on their overreach into local education. While unlikely, that seems at least plausible, while a constitutional amendment does not.
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Old 03-07-2015, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,214 posts, read 11,245,484 times
Reputation: 20827
Thanks for the respectful response, I'll emphasize again that the suggestion of an "Amendment" was too extreme, but I do see the replacement of religious absolutes by an overcentralized bureaucracy, backed by the power of a union within the oligopoly which is public education, as not that much of an improvement.

Probably because I grew up in the company of several educators (a spinster aunt taught for many years in an upscale Brooklyn neighborhood -- an option for some graduates of the Pennsylvania Teachers' Colleges of the time) I heard, and saw for myself, some examples of abuse of the system; one of my teachers also held a full-time job in a local warehouse.My seventh grade geography teacher was a great source of both anecdotes and insights -- when she was actually teaching. But on some days, she would simply fill the blackboards with written notes, which we were expected to copy verbatim, while she did her prep and peripheral work.

But there were some very good ones too, like the man cited below:

Joseph J Colone (1924 - 2002) - Find A Grave Memorial

My point, I suppose, is that those of us who seek a better education stand a better chance if we become largely autodidactic -- and most of us do. But I don't see much of this in our currently-deteriorating educational system, and little evidence of support among the present educational Establishment.

The educational system in which I came of age was designed to provide heavy industry with a fairly homogeneous stream of graduates; even upon graduation, too many of us discover, as I did, that much of the white-collar working word resembles the Junior High classrooms I found so stifling. But I don't see much of a prospect for improvement in what's turning into a power struggle between the bureaucratic model and the desire for a sentimental wallow in the past advocated by too many in the "homeschooling" movement dominated by the Christian Right. Diversity shouldn't be as frightening, or as expensive as too many of the absolutisrts within our current polarization claim it to be.

I'm curious as to what some of the other participants might view as a "default option" to which we seem to be fated.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 03-07-2015 at 08:34 PM..
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Old 03-07-2015, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Paradise
3,663 posts, read 5,648,099 times
Reputation: 4865
I'd like to see something similar to the Finnish system. But at the community level. On a federal level it'd be another ineffective bureaucracy.

Still, it would be expensive. If, however, the federal government did not take money from individuals in the first place and then give only a portion of it back after many layers of government took their piece of the pie, a lot of the funding would be in place.

It will never happen, but I can dream.
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Old 03-27-2015, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Texas
38,859 posts, read 25,375,906 times
Reputation: 24780
Default Want better schools?

No one in America listens to the truth concerning our schools. Other nations have found what works, but we insist on going the opposite direction.

What does the #1 nation do differently?
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Old 03-29-2015, 01:46 PM
 
12,596 posts, read 8,820,605 times
Reputation: 34435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
No one in America listens to the truth concerning our schools. Other nations have found what works, but we insist on going the opposite direction.

What does the #1 nation do differently?
Love your hyperlink. I am not an educator, but am a professional tester (of things, not people) which is why I deplore the current infatuation leaders (managers, politicians, others) have with testing and a checklist mentality. They know the words, but not the meaning. They have taken a process that works in a scientific and engineering model and are applying it, through very shaky pop psychology methods, to human interactions.

It's the same problem whether we're talking standardized tests in schools or metrics in the workplace. Someone gets a bee in their bonnet about "fixing" whatever their supposed problem is, and grab the buzzwords they've been sold by some consultant and apply that to every problem they see. I just hate to see the tools of my profession misused to support political agendas with bad data.
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