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I am Italian, although my last name looks more Spanish than Italian. When my paternal grandfather was in elementary school, his teacher insisted that he was spelling his name wrong. Back then, parents never questioned a teacher, no matter how wrong the teacher was, so his (and his siblings) last name was changed to how is teacher insisted that it should be spelled. So that is why it doesn't look like an Italian name.
In retrospect, another possibility is that maybe at least 1 teacher who didn't like me (the male 7th grade science teacher who gave me a 0 for the day, with me ultimately getting detention, when another student falsely accused me of spilling a bottle of acid; that was the same teacher forced me to write 100 times "I will not be insubordinate" when he made an error in grading my exam. Do you remember both of those stories?) perhaps thought I was Hispanic (and he was perhaps a racist). There was a Hispanic girl in that class (one of the only Hispanics in the school), and she had a fairly common and very easy to pronounce (but obviously Spanish) first name. This teacher would always intentionally mispronounce her name. Like so many of my classmates (but not myself, as I said earlier), she would never correct him, but she was very visibly upset whenever he would mispronounce her name. I do realize that I should not have got involved, but I eventually asked him why he always pronounces her name that way. He kicked me out of class.
It's hard to account for the behavior of one teacher. Since it's hard to fire teachers with tenure, you often have nuts to verging degrees who hang around. I had some teachers who, looking back, I can now see were crazy, had drinking problems, etc. I had a Chemistry teacher who sometimes lost it and just screamed at the class for most of the period. One time I couldn't resist laughing, and he threw me out and I ended up getting 2 days detention.
My general observation is that many lower grade teachers prefer kids who just conform and comply, and don't present a challenge. Generally, I think that teachers of older kids are a bit more tolerant of the kids who challenge them somewhat. That probably dictates, consciously or not, the grade levels they choose to teach.
You were clearly not the blindly compliant type. That probably helps explain most of the detentions, punish assignments, etc. that you experienced in the lower grades, and why it,did not continue in high school.
For whatever reason, I was the opposite. I didn't get into trouble much at all in the lower grades, but found myself in detention with increasing frequency as I moved through high school. I think I was more compliant in the lower grades but discovered in high school that I wanted to push limits and break rules. I started to get a charge out of breaking rules and considered the punishment worth it. So I was in detention for very different reasons than you were.
It's hard to account for the behavior of one teacher. Since it's hard to fire teachers with tenure, you often have nuts to verging degrees who hang around. I had some teachers who, looking back, I can now see were crazy, had drinking problems, etc. I had a Chemistry teacher who sometimes lost it and just screamed at the class for most of the period. One time I couldn't resist laughing, and he threw me out and I ended up getting 2 days detention.
I definitely had a few crazy teachers, even in high school. They would typically remind us that they have tenure, and don't care if we learn or not. Tenure is one of the main things ruining our education system. But given the power that the teachers' union has around here, it's not going away.
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My general observation is that many lower grade teachers prefer kids who just conform and comply, and don't present a challenge. Generally, I think that teachers of older kids are a bit more tolerant of the kids who challenge them somewhat. That probably dictates, consciously or not, the grade levels they choose to teach.
You were clearly not the blindly compliant type. That probably helps explain most of the detentions, punish assignments, etc. that you experienced in the lower grades, and why it,did not continue in high school.
True. Although, I definitely had teachers in high school who hated me. I think not getting detention in high school was mostly because, for whatever reason, nobody in high school really bullied me (unlike elementary and middle school), so I never had to stand up to bullies. I did have teachers in high school give me and others "punish assignments", to use your term. One that I remember was in a computer science class, my program wasn't working, and I banged the desk and said the S word. So I had to write 100 times "I will use appropriate language in class". I agree I shouldn't have cursed in class, but I always felt that having to write 100 lines for a word that is so frequently used was a punishment that doesn't fit the crime, at least not in high school.
Another memorable punishment assignment was in my 9th grade math class. He would often randomly mention a fruit or vegetable, and if he suspected a student was not paying attention, that student would have to write the name of the fruit or vegetable 100 times. Or, sometimes he would say "whoever is the next person to talk must write [name of a fruit or vegetable] 100 times". On occasion, he would ask another student to name the fruit or vegetable (in one case, the student chose "pea", so he slightly modified the rules that if he judges the fruit or vegetable name to be too short, you had to write it yourself). In my case, he said "The next student who talks has to write "cantaloupe" 100 times". I was already talking to the girl who was sitting next to me, so I had to write it.
Not wanting my parents to see me being punished, I wrote my lines during lunch. But I wasn't sure how to spell "cantaloupe". The 3 teachers who lunch duty were an English teacher, a social studies teacher, and a French teacher. I assumed the English teacher would be the best at spelling, so I asked her how to spell "cantaloupe". She just gave a nasty reply "You don't talk to me. You are not a part of my circle. So don't talk to me". I then tried the social studies teacher, who said "If I wasn't teaching social studies, I'd be teaching math. If I wasn't teaching math, I'd be unemployed". So I then tried the French teacher, who said "Ah, you got in trouble in [name of teacher]'s class." He then, incorrectly told me that it was spelled "canteloupe". I assumed he was correct, so I spelled it that way. When I got home, I checked the dictionary, and found out it was unfortunately spelled "cantaloupe". The penalty for a mis-spelled fruit or vegetable was to have to write it 200 times the next day. Again, I didn't want my parents to see me doing the punishment. So, the next morning, on the school bus, I changed all of the e's to a's. Luckily, he didn't seem to notice.
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For whatever reason, I was the opposite. I didn't get into trouble much at all in the lower grades, but found myself in detention with increasing frequency as I moved through high school. I think I was more compliant in the lower grades but discovered in high school that I wanted to push limits and break rules. I started to get a charge out of breaking rules and considered the punishment worth it. So I was in detention for very different reasons than you were.
In most cases, I would get punishments that didn't fit the crime (and others would get lesser punishments or even no punishments for the same offenses), so I never got a detention that I felt was worth it.
True. Although, I definitely had teachers in high school who hated me. I think not getting detention in high school was mostly because, for whatever reason, nobody in high school really bullied me (unlike elementary and middle school), so I never had to stand up to bullies. I did have teachers in high school give me and others "punish assignments", to use your term. One that I remember was in a computer science class, my program wasn't working, and I banged the desk and said the S word. So I had to write 100 times "I will use appropriate language in class". I agree I shouldn't have cursed in class, but I always felt that having to write 100 lines for a word that is so frequently used was a punishment that doesn't fit the crime, at least not in high school.
Another memorable punishment assignment was in my 9th grade math class. He would often randomly mention a fruit or vegetable, and if he suspected a student was not paying attention, that student would have to write the name of the fruit or vegetable 100 times. Or, sometimes he would say "whoever is the next person to talk must write [name of a fruit or vegetable] 100 times". On occasion, he would ask another student to name the fruit or vegetable (in one case, the student chose "pea", so he slightly modified the rules that if he judges the fruit or vegetable name to be too short, you had to write it yourself). In my case, he said "The next student who talks has to write "cantaloupe" 100 times". I was already talking to the girl who was sitting next to me, so I had to write it.
Not wanting my parents to see me being punished, I wrote my lines during lunch. But I wasn't sure how to spell "cantaloupe". The 3 teachers who lunch duty were an English teacher, a social studies teacher, and a French teacher. I assumed the English teacher would be the best at spelling, so I asked her how to spell "cantaloupe". She just gave a nasty reply "You don't talk to me. You are not a part of my circle. So don't talk to me". I then tried the social studies teacher, who said "If I wasn't teaching social studies, I'd be teaching math. If I wasn't teaching math, I'd be unemployed". So I then tried the French teacher, who said "Ah, you got in trouble in [name of teacher]'s class." He then, incorrectly told me that it was spelled "canteloupe". I assumed he was correct, so I spelled it that way. When I got home, I checked the dictionary, and found out it was unfortunately spelled "cantaloupe". The penalty for a mis-spelled fruit or vegetable was to have to write it 200 times the next day. Again, I didn't want my parents to see me doing the punishment. So, the next morning, on the school bus, I changed all of the e's to a's. Luckily, he didn't seem to notice.
I think the punishment in the computer science class was probably justified. Yelling out curses in class is a legitimately punishable offense, IMO. The cantaloupe punishment was justified too, since you were talking in class. But man, some of those teachers in the cafeteria sound mean.
Would your parents have punished you further if they'd known you had gotten punished in school? I never wanted my parents to know when I got punished in school either. I never owned up to having detention; I always came up with another excuse for why I was getting home so late on those days when I had to serve detention. I used to have to do punish assignments at home in the lower and middle grades, but in high school, to the extent I had to do punish assignments, it was while I was in detention. There was a period when one of my teachers kept giving some of us detention over and over, and the dean who supervised detention noticed and started making us write out punish assignments while we served our time, rather than letting us do homework or just sit there.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
In most cases, I would get punishments that didn't fit the crime (and others would get lesser punishments or even no punishments for the same offenses), so I never got a detention that I felt was worth it.
That's too bad, because it was kind of satisfying for me to get a punishment that I knew I deserved, not have it bother me very much, and then repeat the offense. It made me feel that more powerful than the administration, that they really couldn't hurt me. One rule the school had was that students were not allowed to exit or enter the school through the main office, which had a door that I guess only visitors and parents were supposed to use. At normal dismissal time, there was usually somebody there to stop students from using it. But when we got out of detention, later in the afternoon, there was nobody there. The detention room was merely steps away from this exit, and after I got out of detention, I used to love to exit through that door. It gave me the feeling that the punishment I had just taken was neutralized, since I broke another rule right on the heels of it. I think that for me, it was more fun to defy the punishment than not to get punished at all.
My 6A homeroom teacher was a bee-atch! Fat dumpy Mrs. Palazolla with that fuzzy hair. Ugh! First off, typical 6th grade teacher: boys were moronic slobs, no matter what; and girls were princesses. She hated me to the max. As an arse-licking elementary school student who had gotten double promoted twice, prior, she had her fangs out for me right from the start. No way I was gonna garner any respect from her.
To top it off, the principal came in at the beginning of the semester and selected me to be a tutor and teacher assistant for a second grade class. WHAT!!?? You didn't pick a girl?!! You pig! That was the end of it for me. I got kicked out of that classroom many times for absolutely no reason. She gave me the only "D" I ever got before or since. In "Literature," no less. Yeah, right. Based on what?
I remember my mom going in for parent teacher conference. She had very little to say except "tough it out."
Then, there was the schizo nutcase I had for 12th grade history (Mr Ulveling, Cass Tech). [I won't even get into the 'purple rages" he went into on test day when he asked the left handed kids to raise their hands so he could re-seat them]... But I managed to arse-lick my way through that class. Sitting way in the back, out of his line of sight was probably the best thing, though. We were seated alphabetically in there. If your last name started with "D" or "H" or "M" (diagonally seated from his desk, in his default line of sight) good luck. How many make-ups did you get, sucker? Hey, Anne Houghton - I'm talking to you. Thankfully I sat rear seat right in the row right in front of his desk, with chubby Shumski, and tall Stapleton in front of me, shielding me, totally out of sight. I was almost never called on. And even then, I was called "a gentleman, an artist, and a scholar," before I was even given a chance to respond to his question. Pffft.
And you ask me why school was so depressing?
Last edited by TwinbrookNine; 04-24-2016 at 04:58 PM..
I think the punishment in the computer science class was probably justified. Yelling out curses in class is a legitimately punishable offense, IMO.
But that punishment was never given to anybody else who cursed in class.
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The cantaloupe punishment was justified too, since you were talking in class.
But then the punishment should apply to everybody who was talking in class (or not paying attention), not just the next person to talk, especially since I was already talking before he said "next person to talk . . ." and was not given an opportunity to stop talking (and technically, I wasn't even the "next" person to talk; I was the previous).
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But man, some of those teachers in the cafeteria sound mean.
Of the ones I mentioned, the English teacher was the only one who was mean. She said I was "not in her circle" since she would spend the period socializing with the other 2 teachers (her "circle") rather than actually doing cafeteria duty. The social studies teacher wasn't being mean, he just didn't know how to spell "cantaloupe". The French teacher, most likely, was not being mean either, and he likely truly thought that it was spelled "canteloupe", which is understandable, since his job is teaching a language that is not English. Or are you suggesting that he intentionally gave me a wrong spelling so that I would get in trouble? I honestly never thought of that possibility.
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Would your parents have punished you further if they'd known you had gotten punished in school?
Yes, they would have.
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I never wanted my parents to know when I got punished in school either. I never owned up to having detention; I always came up with another excuse for why I was getting home so late on those days when I had to serve detention.
Unfortunately, in my school, when we got detention, the assistant principal would call our parents, and we would get a form that had to be signed by our parents. Even for a minor lunch detention. So there was no way for your parents to not find out about detention.
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I used to have to do punish assignments at home in the lower and middle grades, but in high school, to the extent I had to do punish assignments, it was while I was in detention. There was a period when one of my teachers kept giving some of us detention over and over, and the dean who supervised detention noticed and started making us write out punish assignments while we served our time, rather than letting us do homework or just sit there.
In one case, where I had detention, I was required to spend the time writing a letter of apology to the teacher. I was not even remotely sorry, so I just wrote a fake letter that said all the right things. Don't you feel that is a total waste of time?
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That's too bad, because it was kind of satisfying for me to get a punishment that I knew I deserved, not have it bother me very much, and then repeat the offense. It made me feel that more powerful than the administration, that they really couldn't hurt me. One rule the school had was that students were not allowed to exit or enter the school through the main office, which had a door that I guess only visitors and parents were supposed to use. At normal dismissal time, there was usually somebody there to stop students from using it. But when we got out of detention, later in the afternoon, there was nobody there. The detention room was merely steps away from this exit, and after I got out of detention, I used to love to exit through that door. It gave me the feeling that the punishment I had just taken was neutralized, since I broke another rule right on the heels of it. I think that for me, it was more fun to defy the punishment than not to get punished at all.
I can see how you would feel that way, especially since that was likely a rule just to put students in their place and make them feel inferior to adults, rather than to serve any real purpose.
That reminds me of something else: when I was in elementary school, there was a back entrance to the main office that only faculty were allowed to use. This entrance was only maybe 50 feet away from the one that us students were allowed to use, so it didn't offer faculty any real time savings; it appeared to be just a form of segregation. The door was completely unlabeled, having only a completely useless room number on the door (nobody referred to the main office by a room number, and the entrance that us students were allowed to use had no room number on the door).
For years, I had no idea what was behind that door. Every week, in class, somebody was designated the messenger. When it was my week to be messenger, I was told to deliver a note to somebody. I asked around as to where that person was, so eventually somebody pointed to that door, and said she was in there. I then knocked on the door, and nobody answered. But across the hall from that entrance was the learning center; since the learning center teacher primarily taught remedial students, she hated high achieving students, such as myself, and had no problem openly admitting that fact. She started yelling at me, telling me in an extremely rude voice that students are not allowed to use that entrance to the main office. I tried to explain that another teacher told me to knock on the door since I have to give a note to somebody who was in there. I explained that I did not even realize it was a faculty entrance to the main office. She then accused me of lying, saying that no teacher would tell me to knock on that door. But everything I said to her was the truth.
Do you agree that since that entrance provided no time savings, being only a few feet away, it existed only to separate faculty from us lowly students? And, do you agree that even if they wanted to have a faculty-only entrance to the main office for whatever reason, then rather than just labeling the door with a completely useless room number, it should have been labeled something like "Main Office - Faculty Only. All Others Use Other Entrance", with an arrow pointing to the other entrance?
I had a teacher in Law in my schoolyears. She was and actually is like Horace Slughorn in Harry Potter saga - she always had pet students whether they were from rich and well-known families or were good in law studying. She organized her own discussion club for her pet students... I wasn't interested in law and my family was quite simple, and this teacher had never noticed me. Yeah, she wasn't pleasant woman..
But then the punishment should apply to everybody who was talking in class (or not paying attention), not just the next person to talk, especially since I was already talking before he said "next person to talk . . ." and was not given an opportunity to stop talking (and technically, I wasn't even the "next" person to talk; I was the previous).
That reminds me of the last time I got nailed for speeding. As I was sitting on the side of the road with the flashing lights in my rear view mirror, waiting for my ticket, countless cars went flying by, way above the speed limit. Yet they were getting away and I was getting the ticket. In the immediate sense, it was unfair until I thought about all the times I had flown by somebody else getting a ticket. You can't always catch and punish everybody.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Unfortunately, in my school, when we got detention, the assistant principal would call our parents, and we would get a form that had to be signed by our parents. Even for a minor lunch detention. So there was no way for your parents to not find out about detention.
My school called the parents if somebody was a consistent problem, but not over every little detention. I was lucky because my parents probably wouldn't have reacted well. Did you get into more trouble at home when the school notified your parents that you had gotten another detention?
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
In one case, where I had detention, I was required to spend the time writing a letter of apology to the teacher. I was not even remotely sorry, so I just wrote a fake letter that said all the right things. Don't you feel that is a total waste of time?
Of course it is. Isn't that the whole point? The whole nature of that punishment is to waste your time, to keep you from doing something more fun.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
I can see how you would feel that way, especially since that was likely a rule just to put students in their place and make them feel inferior to adults, rather than to serve any real purpose.
That reminds me of something else: when I was in elementary school, there was a back entrance to the main office that only faculty were allowed to use. This entrance was only maybe 50 feet away from the one that us students were allowed to use, so it didn't offer faculty any real time savings; it appeared to be just a form of segregation. The door was completely unlabeled, having only a completely useless room number on the door (nobody referred to the main office by a room number, and the entrance that us students were allowed to use had no room number on the door).
For years, I had no idea what was behind that door. Every week, in class, somebody was designated the messenger. When it was my week to be messenger, I was told to deliver a note to somebody. I asked around as to where that person was, so eventually somebody pointed to that door, and said she was in there. I then knocked on the door, and nobody answered. But across the hall from that entrance was the learning center; since the learning center teacher primarily taught remedial students, she hated high achieving students, such as myself, and had no problem openly admitting that fact. She started yelling at me, telling me in an extremely rude voice that students are not allowed to use that entrance to the main office. I tried to explain that another teacher told me to knock on the door since I have to give a note to somebody who was in there. I explained that I did not even realize it was a faculty entrance to the main office. She then accused me of lying, saying that no teacher would tell me to knock on that door. But everything I said to her was the truth.
Do you agree that since that entrance provided no time savings, being only a few feet away, it existed only to separate faculty from us lowly students? And, do you agree that even if they wanted to have a faculty-only entrance to the main office for whatever reason, then rather than just labeling the door with a completely useless room number, it should have been labeled something like "Main Office - Faculty Only. All Others Use Other Entrance", with an arrow pointing to the other entrance?
In my school, I could understand why the main office door was off limits to students. It would have created a bad traffic pattern to have lots of people cutting through there. It made perfect sense. I can't say for your school. It wasn't marked in my school either, but we all knew the rules. I didn't really care; it just made me feel good to violate that rule after serving detention. By that point in the afternoon, it didn't really matter since the school was mostly deserted by then anyway. But if you knew that students weren't supposed to use that door, I don't see why they needed a sign, though I guess it wouldn't have hurt to have one.
My sister was four years ahead of me in school. She was an instigator, often getting detention, etc. while I was the quiet, studious one. She and I had different last names back when that wasn't as common, which meant not every teacher figured out our familial connection. I ended up with the same fourth-grade teacher she had had, and I could not figure out why Mrs. Morgan always thought the worst of me. If something was wrong, she'd call my name as if it was a given that I was causing the issue...only to find out I was nowhere near it. I recall being put in the hall (ooh, scary!) and having my desk turned toward the wall at various times, all small-potatoes stuff but very serious to a little kid afraid of authority.
It all came to a head when Mrs. Morgan tried to have me transferred out of her room (we were ability-grouped; I was in the "A" class, and she wanted to 'demote' me to "B"). My grades were fine and I was perfectly fine doing "A" level work. I came home in tears (as I so often did), so my mother went down to the schoolhouse and had quite a meeting with Mrs. Morgan and the Principal. Needless to say I stayed with my class (and with Mrs. Morgan), and it wasn't until about ten years later before my mother told me what she'd actually said and done in that meeting. (Salty language was involved; my mom was a lot more like my sister than me. )
It took a freakin' parent-teacher conference (after months of antagonism) for this woman to recognize that I was my own person, that I was not the hellion that my sister had been, and even if I WAS, she needed to have a more open mind rather than just automatically assume the worst from me.
That reminds me of the last time I got nailed for speeding. As I was sitting on the side of the road with the flashing lights in my rear view mirror, waiting for my ticket, countless cars went flying by, way above the speed limit. Yet they were getting away and I was getting the ticket. In the immediate sense, it was unfair until I thought about all the times I had flown by somebody else getting a ticket. You can't always catch and punish everybody.
But shouldn't the girl that I was talking with been given the same punishment that I got, given that we were both obviously talking at the same time? This was another example of what I meant when I said that the teachers I had in high school would have more subtle ways of favoring girls, unlike the elementary school teachers who openly hated boys. Come to think of it, I can't ever remember any girls ever having to write the name of a fruit or vegetable 100 times in that class. (although he did mention that in another one of his classes, a girl misspelled "raspberry", and had to write it 200 times the next day, so I guess he did give at least some girls that punishment).
Also, was it really fair to retroactively apply the punishment to me, when me and the girl were talking before (not after) his "Next person to talk has to write cantaloupe 100 times"? To use your speeding analogy, that would be like lowering a speed limit from 55 MPH to 45 MPH, and then giving a ticket to somebody who was driving 54 MPH before the speed limit was reduced. You still think that was fair?
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My school called the parents if somebody was a consistent problem, but not over every little detention. I was lucky because my parents probably wouldn't have reacted well. Did you get into more trouble at home when the school notified your parents that you had gotten another detention?
They never really punished me for detention, but they would get mad at me and lecture to me, and often threaten me with further punishments. They definitely never punished me or even lectured to me when I stood up to a bully, since they would encourage me to do so. But nearly every single day from 6th grade until I graduated from 12th grade, I would get a reminder about how I should keep my mouth shut at all times, and my teachers should not even know who I am. Sorry, but that's not who I am.
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Of course it is. Isn't that the whole point? The whole nature of that punishment is to waste your time, to keep you from doing something more fun.
I see your point. But why force a student to write a letter of apology when the student very obviously is not sorry? And, why was I singled out that time and given an additional assignment in punishment, when everybody else (including all other times that I had detention) was just allowed to do their homework and/or read.
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In my school, I could understand why the main office door was off limits to students. It would have created a bad traffic pattern to have lots of people cutting through there. It made perfect sense. I can't say for your school. It wasn't marked in my school either, but we all knew the rules. I didn't really care; it just made me feel good to violate that rule after serving detention. By that point in the afternoon, it didn't really matter since the school was mostly deserted by then anyway. But if you knew that students weren't supposed to use that door, I don't see why they needed a sign, though I guess it wouldn't have hurt to have one.
Was it clear that the rule was not enforced after hours? If the rule was still technically in effect, did you ever worry about getting a punishment that didn't fit the crime?
One rule that I would regularly break in high school: during lunch, there was exactly 1 legal route to use to go between any of the areas that you were allowed to access during lunch (any of the 3 cafeterias, the library, or the commons area). None of those legal routes involved walking past classrooms (fair enough, so you didn't disturb them). And none of the legal routes involved walking through the front lobby, since they claimed that it "degraded the look of the school". You could not access your locker during lunch, unless it happened to be located along a legal route between areas you were allowed to be. My locker was in the front lobby, one of the many areas we were not allowed to access. But I figured out a way to get to my locker without passing any hall aides, until I got to the front lobby. After I would get whatever I needed from my locker, the hall aide patrolling the front lobby (why do students "degrade the look of the school", but a hall aide does not?) would remind me that I am not supposed to be there, and that I should leave, which I would comply with, so I would never get in trouble.
Not breaking any rules, but making me feel good: the high school building had 3 towers (there was more to the building than just the 3 towers), and each cafeteria was on the 1st floor of one of the towers. The 1st floor hallways outside of the towers all had classrooms, so you couldn't use them during lunch. There were overpasses connecting the towers on the 2nd and 3rd floors, but not on the 1st floor, and you could not get to the overpasses without passing classrooms, so they were off limits too. So, the only way to legally get from one tower to another during lunch involved going outside of the building, which was otherwise not allowed during lunch (unless you were a senior). For some reason, it would feel good going outside the building during lunch to get from one tower to another: I would feel as if I was somehow legally subverting the rules. Also, the walk would feel relatively warm even on the coldest days, since you'd be walking through courtyards that were almost entirely surrounded by building, and you'd be underneath the overpasses connecting the towers (remember, they were only on the 2nd and 3rd floors; so on the 1st floor, you would be walking outside, underneath the overpasses). And of course the overpasses would keep you dry if it was raining or snowing.
Interestingly, as a teenager, I felt the same way about making a legal right on red; it would make me feel good that I felt as if I was legally subverting the laws. But when I mentioned that to my drivers ed teacher, for the rest of the semester, out of spite, she made sure that I was never directed t make a right turn at a traffic light (unless it had No Turn on Red).
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