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Exactly. How schools are ranked has little to do with teacher quality or type of principal.
I used to agree with this but I no longer do. I teach in a public STEM academy, we get smart kids, and we were always ranked well, nationally somewhere between 100-200. Then three years ago, we had a huge wave of teacher turnover (nearly 40% new hires) and a new principal due to issues related to Hurricane Sandy. The teachers were not all young, but they teachers they replaced were for the most part teacher who were holdovers from other (nonacademic) schools in the district. What this meant was the new teachers and principals were specifically selected for this particular school and its particular STEM theme. Since then we have had a steady increase in every measurable outcome, SAT scores, competitions, and our rankings are uniformly in the top 50 now.
I think SES and parents are the most important factor but that teachers, principal and school still have a significant impact. We are still getting the same awesome kids we have always gotten, we are just able to get more out of them. Its sort of like sculpting, if you give exceptional artists exceptional materials to work with, you get exceptional results.
I used to agree with this but I no longer do. I teach in a public STEM academy, we get smart kids, and we were always ranked well, nationally somewhere between 100-200. Then three years ago, we had a huge wave of teacher turnover (nearly 40% new hires) and a new principal due to issues related to Hurricane Sandy. The teachers were not all young, but they teachers they replaced were for the most part teacher who were holdovers from other (nonacademic) schools in the district. What this meant was the new teachers and principals were specifically selected for this particular school and its particular STEM theme. Since then we have had a steady increase in every measurable outcome, SAT scores, competitions, and our rankings are uniformly in the top 50 now.
I think SES and parents are the most important factor but that teachers, principal and school still have a significant impact. We are still getting the same awesome kids we have always gotten, we are just able to get more out of them. Its sort of like sculpting, if you give exceptional artists exceptional materials to work with, you get exceptional results.
Bottom line is you still had incredible kids to work with.
I am looking for a new home and the real estate agent was telling me about the quality of the schools in relation to the house we were looking at. I asked her why is this school better than another. She froze. I asked again and she said she assumed it had better Teachers and a better Principal. (It has nothing to do with demographics and the motivation of the students and their parents.)
I asked her if the so called better school would increase the resale value of my home when I decided to sell it. She said yes. So it's that simple, hire better teachers and a great Principal and the value of my home connected with a particular school will go up. Sounds so simple, is it?
Unfortunately, they do not consider the resale value of your home when deciding who to hire. Most schools want the cheapest teacher who can get the job done in front of the classroom. Better districts are pickier because the parents are pickier.
As a teacher in a good district I would put SES first then good teachers. I think you get good results with high SES and better results if you add good teachers, however, the biggest bang for your buck is SES. Think about it. Do you see bad schools in high SES areas?
Bottom line is you still had incredible kids to work with.
I agree. I teach in a high SES area and I'm convinced that the #1 reason my school ranks as high as it does is the quality of the students we get. I do think good teachers make a difference but if you replaced the kids in my school with kids from say Detroit you would not see the kinds of results we are used to. IMO attitude about education is #1. Give me students with good attitudes about education and I can teach to the moon and back.
I am looking for a new home and the real estate agent was telling me about the quality of the schools in relation to the house we were looking at. I asked her why is this school better than another. She froze. I asked again and she said she assumed it had better Teachers and a better Principal. (It has nothing to do with demographics and the motivation of the students and their parents.)
I asked her if the so called better school would increase the resale value of my home when I decided to sell it. She said yes. So it's that simple, hire better teachers and a great Principal and the value of my home connected with a particular school will go up. Sounds so simple, is it?
The law prevents her from directing her clients to certain demographic neighborhoods. So, she froze and had to be very careful what what she says to you. And, in this case, she gave you the political correct answer that's non-controversial.
Find me ONE elementary, middle school, or high school in the United States that's rated horrible acadmeically with majority or huge percentage of East-Asians, I will find you a zoo with a bigfoot.
There is a direct line relationship between family SES and test scores. In other words, as SES goes up, so do school test scores, in every district. There are a few districts that are outliers, such as the district of my youth, which performs "better than expected".
Correlation does not mean causation. I suspect these are really confounded rather than correlated. More likely other variables are the cause of both. Possibly variables such as natural intelligence, work ethic, and expectations for an outcome (in this case an education).
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1
I have to disagree with the statement about paying for better teachers. I've been a substitute teacher in over 10 school districts and see no correlation between teacher pay, the quality of teachers, and the quality of schools..
You just blew a hole in the hearts of your co teachers everywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1
There are obviously other ways such as superintendents and principals who push for higher standards. My kids had a principal who passed away around 10 years ago. He was legendary in the level of discipline he instilled in his buildings. He had very high expectations for both the students and teachers.
But wasn't that the point? That better schools had teachers and principals that had high expectations for the students. Because the parents had higher expectations as well.
Correlation does not mean causation. I suspect these are really confounded rather than correlated. More likely other variables are the cause of both. Possibly variables such as natural intelligence, work ethic, and expectations for an outcome (in this case an education).
You just blew a hole in the hearts of your co teachers everywhere.
But wasn't that the point? That better schools had teachers and principals that had high expectations for the students. Because the parents had higher expectations as well.
You are correct. But this correlation holds, basically nationwide. It's more than strong.
I am looking for a new home and the real estate agent was telling me about the quality of the schools in relation to the house we were looking at. I asked her why is this school better than another. She froze. I asked again and she said she assumed it had better Teachers and a better Principal. (It has nothing to do with demographics and the motivation of the students and their parents.)
I asked her if the so called better school would increase the resale value of my home when I decided to sell it. She said yes. So it's that simple, hire better teachers and a great Principal and the value of my home connected with a particular school will go up. Sounds so simple, is it?
There's some sort of rating system for schools, I think. Rate of graduation, rate of kids who go on to college, and the like.
Then there's the general consensus of the people in the area. Word of mouth.
Then there's the funding that the school gets. If the area is rich, the school gets more funding than it would in a poor area. At least I think things still work that way.
I am looking for a new home and the real estate agent was telling me about the quality of the schools in relation to the house we were looking at. I asked her why is this school better than another. She froze. I asked again and she said she assumed it had better Teachers and a better Principal. (It has nothing to do with demographics and the motivation of the students and their parents.)
I asked her if the so called better school would increase the resale value of my home when I decided to sell it. She said yes. So it's that simple, hire better teachers and a great Principal and the value of my home connected with a particular school will go up. Sounds so simple, is it?
In some places there are rules or ethics that prevent real estate agents from saying certain things about school districts. It can be a touchy subject. Also, real estate agents are not experts in education - actually, they don't know anything about schools. It's like asking a botanist for financial advice. The most desirable schools in a district are typically those with higher income students, and there really are no exceptions to that, if you are measuring "good" by test scores or Great Schools or similar.
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