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Old 02-20-2017, 06:50 PM
 
5,527 posts, read 3,221,704 times
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I think we should rethink education, but in a different way than that of the OP.

We are reaching the limits of education. This can be seen in the decreasing premium afforded to college graduates. College graduates are more likely to be unemployed and underemployed than they used to. This is both a result of more people going to college and the standards for employability rising faster than education can keep up with.

Already, many people have to spend so much time being educated to get lucrative careers that they miss out on the chance to start a family. This mainly happens to PhDs but is happening also to people whose first career sputters and must go back to school to retrain. Education is taking so much time that they are unable to reproduce before the biological/cultural/financial window shuts.

Education is also becoming so expensive that in some cases all future value added by that education is captured by the school. This happens to art majors, self-funding doctoral students, and lower-tier law school graduates. People spend their entire career repaying student loans. What is the point of that?

Meanwhile, there is a shortage of some skilled trades like welders.

People are so desirous of the status boost from being educated that they choose more arduous, riskier, and less remunerative paths than those such as the trades which sacrifice class status for money and stability.

I think we can rethink education by not putting it on a pedestal and not looking down on those who aren't educated. Our obsession with educational status is ruining a lot of lives and wasting a lot of money.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,453,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
That sounds intriguing and similar to historical methods of learning from mentor to a small group of students. I'm not sure it could be done with the mass numbers of students we have today. It would require too many and much better teachers than we have today.
It would also require students who want to learn. Most of my effort is spent on the ones who don't want to learn. The ones who want to learn are easy to teach. We would need to change our attitude about education to get our kids to want to learn. Too many people see school as something inflicted on a child.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,453,119 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
I think we should rethink education, but in a different way than that of the OP.

We are reaching the limits of education. This can be seen in the decreasing premium afforded to college graduates. College graduates are more likely to be unemployed and underemployed than they used to. This is both a result of more people going to college and the standards for employability rising faster than education can keep up with.

Already, many people have to spend so much time being educated to get lucrative careers that they miss out on the chance to start a family. This mainly happens to PhDs but is happening also to people whose first career sputters and must go back to school to retrain. Education is taking so much time that they are unable to reproduce before the biological/cultural/financial window shuts.

Education is also becoming so expensive that in some cases all future value added by that education is captured by the school. This happens to art majors, self-funding doctoral students, and lower-tier law school graduates. People spend their entire career repaying student loans. What is the point of that?

Meanwhile, there is a shortage of some skilled trades like welders.

People are so desirous of the status boost from being educated that they choose more arduous, riskier, and less remunerative paths than those such as the trades which sacrifice class status for money and stability.

I think we can rethink education by not putting it on a pedestal and not looking down on those who aren't educated. Our obsession with educational status is ruining a lot of lives and wasting a lot of money.
I have to agree with you. Too many jobs require an education today that should require an apprenticeship. We need plumbers and carpenters and welders and electricians and auto mechanics, and etc, etc, etc...but they don't need degrees. They need on the job training. We need a tiered education system. We need to stop educating everyone as if they need to go to college. Not everyone is college material. What many young people need is job training not 4 years of college and a lot of debt.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:03 PM
 
12,679 posts, read 8,909,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
It would also require students who want to learn. Most of my effort is spent on the ones who don't want to learn. The ones who want to learn are easy to teach. We would need to change our attitude about education to get our kids to want to learn. Too many people see school as something inflicted on a child.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I have to agree with you. Too many jobs require an education today that should require an apprenticeship. We need plumbers and carpenters and welders and electricians and auto mechanics, and etc, etc, etc...but they don't need degrees. They need on the job training. We need a tiered education system. We need to stop educating everyone as if they need to go to college. Not everyone is college material. What many young people need is job training not 4 years of college and a lot of debt.
I very much agree with what you say here.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:13 PM
 
12,679 posts, read 8,909,981 times
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
How cruel of us to want to be fair to children.
Yes, it is cruel.

To hold back top students from being their best while they wait on the bottom students. How is that fair?
To set students up to fail standards they can never meet. How is that fair?
To push students who don't belong in college to build up college debt instead of learning a trade. How is that fair?

How many lives are you willing to disrupt to allow yourself the delusion of "fair?"
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,421 posts, read 23,999,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Yes, it is cruel.

To hold back top students from being their best while they wait on the bottom students. How is that fair?
To set students up to fail standards they can never meet. How is that fair?
To push students who don't belong in college to build up college debt instead of learning a trade. How is that fair?

How many lives are you willing to disrupt to allow yourself the delusion of "fair?"
If a school is run right, there is no need to hold anybody back. That's just limited thinking.

In our middle school we had gifted/talented center (highest level where students were in gifted classes in all 4 core subjects), gifted base (where students would be in gifted classes in either math/science or social studies/English), regular classes, special education mainstreaming, and self-contained special education classes. So no one needed to hold anyone back. It was fair to everyone. In fact, we even had elementary students who would come to our building for a class or two in the morning if they were working toward being in the science/tech high school. Which, by the way, our middle school sent more students than any of the other middle schools (23 of them) in the county.

There's no need to be snobbish in terms of educational elitism. There can be plenty of appropriate opportunities for students of all types in a school that differentiates instruction for the capabilities and goals of each type of student.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,428,369 times
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Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Cruel, no. Stupid -yes. We are jousting at windmills.
We should have equality of opportunity. I've spoken about how 25+ years ago, we were all screaming Japan, Japan, Japan and then looked into their system and found some flaws. redguard57 talked about their treatment of special ed students.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I have to agree with you. Too many jobs require an education today that should require an apprenticeship. We need plumbers and carpenters and welders and electricians and auto mechanics, and etc, etc, etc...but they don't need degrees. They need on the job training. We need a tiered education system. We need to stop educating everyone as if they need to go to college. Not everyone is college material. What many young people need is job training not 4 years of college and a lot of debt.
There are practically no "trades" type jobs that can be done with just a high school education, even in a Vo-tech program. You know that. Heck, it takes 4 years post high school to become an electrician. It also takes some advanced math courses. You don't really want your electrician to not know how to do their job, do you? The jobs you list all require some education beyond high school.
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Formerly New England now Texas!
1,708 posts, read 1,092,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
That sounds intriguing and similar to historical methods of learning from mentor to a small group of students. I'm not sure it could be done with the mass numbers of students we have today. It would require too many and much better teachers than we have today.
Google knows our IQ, the folks who integrate with common core know our kids IQ (Google, Microsoft, Pearson, Apple, etc). Only our teachers, parents and students don't know the IQ of students.

My thought is that IQ has some effect on ability to learn, and we should know what each kids approximate capability for independent study is. Generally slower kids can catch up, but it is awful to trap a smart kid with less smart kids in the same curriculum as we tend to teach at this time toward the bottom. Independent study with attention as needed should be the rule.
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Formerly New England now Texas!
1,708 posts, read 1,092,644 times
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Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
We should have equality of opportunity. I've spoken about how 25+ years ago, we were all screaming Japan, Japan, Japan and then looked into their system and found some flaws. redguard57 talked about their treatment of special ed students.



There are practically no "trades" type jobs that can be done with just a high school education, even in a Vo-tech program. You know that. Heck, it takes 4 years post high school to become an electrician. It also takes some advanced math courses. You don't really want your electrician to not know how to do their job, do you? The jobs you list all require some education beyond high school.
One of my kids in in a vocational electrical program, he will graduate with 2,500 hours toward the 4,000 needed to be a journeyman (5,000 hours if you are in a union in my state). 1,500 hours is a bit less than a year out of high school to be a journeyman electrician. Takes about 8,000 total hours to be an E1 electrician (aka contractor).

100% job placement before graduation. Vocational electrical is a lot better than STEM if you like the work.
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:36 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,655 posts, read 57,732,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by functionofx View Post
...
My first thought is to rethink education, and instead replace it with learning. ...
What if instead of segregating academics by age, we allowed students to advance based on their unique abilities. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
I think we should rethink education, but in a different way than that of the OP.
...Meanwhile, there is a shortage of some skilled trades like welders.. Our obsession with educational status is ruining a lot of lives and wasting a lot of money.
volunteering as a family in the local schools, my home schooled kid came home and mentioned... "If those students would "LISTEN" they could be out of there by noon..."

Ours learned trades (to an extent) They had to design in CAD and permit and build their own homes during Jr High. It was a ploy to keep them in College! They disliked running shovels and hammers and even the dozer. They used the proceeds from the homes ($70k each) to pay for college.

I served an apprenticeship and had a great career (professional and skilled), I don't think you will find too many apprentices today willing to deal with the delayed pay and tough abuse from journeymen. Some will do fine, but not many. We (USA) now have to hire my profession on green cards.

yes... we should not only re-think EDU, we should actually do something about it
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