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I made a topic in CE about a girl that took her own life due to bullying by others, including having very lewd photos of her photoshopped and she was harassed among other things. A good point that was brought up is if the same kinds of things that happen to kids that are bullied were done by an adult to another adult there would be SEVERE consequences. Why is it any different for kids especially in middle/high school? Seems like bullies get away with all sorts of crap that if they were an adult they'd be locked up in the slammer or at least be able to have some legal recourse.
So why is it bullies are given so much power and few consequences?
I keep saying the very same about child abuse, parents who beat their children.... and think its ok as its Their kids and they have a right. they dont.. but do that to a stranger in the street and they would be imprisoned.. its shameful, bullying usually starts by kids being beaten at home and bullied themselves... adults should be ashamed.
I made a topic in CE about a girl that took her own life due to bullying by others, including having very lewd photos of her photoshopped and she was harassed among other things. A good point that was brought up is if the same kinds of things that happen to kids that are bullied were done by an adult to another adult there would be SEVERE consequences. Why is it any different for kids especially in middle/high school? Seems like bullies get away with all sorts of crap that if they were an adult they'd be locked up in the slammer or at least be able to have some legal recourse.
So why is it bullies are given so much power and few consequences?
The first question and the last are different.
The reason school bullies are not given the same punishments as adults is because they are not adults. Children, even teenaged children, are not developmentally the same as adults. The hey shouldn't be treated the same as adults.
Second, as you seem to note, most bullying now takes place online and not actually at the school. Many people seem to think the school is responsible in these situations but I am not sure why. Realistically if nude photos are involved than the police should be the ones to handle it, as in many cases child pornography statutes are involved but many parents do not involve the police. Finally, the parents of those who are doing the bullying are frequently unaware or in denial about what their children do online. Parents of all teens need to remain aware of what they are doing online. Likewise parents of kids who are being bullied need to limit their children's use of social media as well.
As for consequences, the school is inherently limited due to the online nature of the problem. All children, even those accused of bullying (and the false accusation of bullying is become ingrained it's own form of harassment in recent years) are entitled to a public education. Therefore it becomes a law enforcement issue but parents seem reluctant to approach police and when they do, they are surprised that most law has not kept up with the times and that unless nude photos are involved there is little the police can do as most of the harassment is also online.
I made a topic in CE about a girl that took her own life due to bullying by others, including having very lewd photos of her photoshopped and she was harassed among other things. A good point that was brought up is if the same kinds of things that happen to kids that are bullied were done by an adult to another adult there would be SEVERE consequences. Why is it any different for kids especially in middle/high school? Seems like bullies get away with all sorts of crap that if they were an adult they'd be locked up in the slammer or at least be able to have some legal recourse.
So why is it bullies are given so much power and few consequences?
In this instance it is not the responsibility of the schools to address it unless it can be proved the posts were made during school hours and on school computers. The courts have already struck down laws in a few states where the legislature has tried to make it the school's responsibility, schools can only address issues that occur within the constructs of the service they are charged with giving. This has been addressed by various cases through the years and the rulings boil down to it would have to directly impact the ability of the school to provide appropriate education. That direct impact is a hard bar to leap when something occurs outside of school hours.
But even when bullying occurs in the schools and it is their responsibility to address it, the appropriate response is tempered by the legal assumption that free public education is considered a right. Their hands are tied even more if the bullying student is on an IEP or even a 504 plan, in those cases free public education in the least restrictive environment is an actual specific legal right, not just an assumption.
All that aside, as a previous poster stated, you are discussing children. They are not adults, they don't reason like adults, they don't understand causation or consequences like adults, and their actions are often more reactive than adults. Plus, the first goal when dealing with youth should be reform instead of punishment.
All the above said, we do not utilize alternative schools enough.
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The reason school bullies are not given the same punishments as adults is because they are not adults. Children, even teenaged children, are not developmentally the same as adults. The hey shouldn't be treated the same as adults.
Second, as you seem to note, most bullying now takes place online and not actually at the school. Many people seem to think the school is responsible in these situations but I am not sure why. Realistically if nude photos are involved than the police should be the ones to handle it, as in many cases child pornography statutes are involved but many parents do not involve the police. Finally, the parents of those who are doing the bullying are frequently unaware or in denial about what their children do online. Parents of all teens need to remain aware of what they are doing online. Likewise parents of kids who are being bullied need to limit their children's use of social media as well.
As for consequences, the school is inherently limited due to the online nature of the problem. All children, even those accused of bullying (and the false accusation of bullying is become ingrained it's own form of harassment in recent years) are entitled to a public education. Therefore it becomes a law enforcement issue but parents seem reluctant to approach police and when they do, they are surprised that most law has not kept up with the times and that unless nude photos are involved there is little the police can do as most of the harassment is also online.
Great post lkb. If I might add a few comments.
You're right. Adults are adults. Kids are kids. I'm not saying excuse it, but we generally do not treat children (bad as some may be) the same as adults.
What is involved in bullying has changed a great deal over the decades. When I was a kid, bullying was mostly considered physical stuff. Now I've had parents come in with stuff like, "My daughter is being bullied. What are you going to do about it Mr. Principal?" "Tell me about the bullying." "My daughter wasn't invited to a birthday party." No, I'm not joking. A parent considered that bullying. The physical stuff still goes on, but a lot of the focus, as lkb noted, is online stuff.
Generally speaking, girls are much worse long-term bullys than boys.
Even old-fashioned physical bullying STILL isn't mostly done out in the open. It's in the bathrooms, the locker room, the isolated hallway, the classroom before the teacher walks in, on the way to and from school, in the neighborhood. It's not usually done right under the teacher's or administrator's noses.
Parents excuse bullying way too much. There's still too much "boys will be boys" or "girls will be girls" thinking on the part of adults. And, "It's just kid's stuff". And, unfortunately, too many teachers and administrators do tend to overlook or ignore it.
lkb is right -- bullying that takes place outside of school is not under the school's jurisdiction (the to and from school situation is a little less clear).
Parents too often want the school to do something, but don't want to do something themselves. We had one online incident -- proven to not be done on school equipment -- that had the parent-victims ranting and raving about "what are you going to do about it, Mr. Principal?", but when it came down to what they were going to do about it -- like involved the police -- the parents did absolutely nothing.
I've suspended my share of bullies. That's usually the most a school can do. I even went to court one day over one bullying case, and here's what the judge said to me: "Why are you here? You're not the victim. The victim's parents need to bring action. They would be the ones with legal standing."
Generally speaking, girls are much worse long-term bullys than boys.
That may well be true. I think girls bully in different ways though. Boys tend to be more physical bullies. Girls more likely to bully through social exclusion and malicious gossip.
That may well be true. I think girls bully in different ways though. Boys tend to be more physical bullies. Girls more likely to bully through social exclusion and malicious gossip.
Yes, exactly true. And boys tend to get over things more quickly, where girls will tend to keep it going longer.
I think girls learn social exclusion from parents. Adults are very good at it.
Now I've had parents come in with stuff like, "My daughter is being bullied. What are you going to do about it Mr. Principal?" "Tell me about the bullying." "My daughter wasn't invited to a birthday party." No, I'm not joking. A parent considered that bullying. The physical stuff still goes on, but a lot of the focus, as lkb noted, is online stuff.
I got quite a few complaints from parents about students giving other students dirty looks, or "no one will sit with my daughter at lunch." This was in high school.
I made a topic in CE about a girl that took her own life due to bullying by others, including having very lewd photos of her photoshopped and she was harassed among other things. A good point that was brought up is if the same kinds of things that happen to kids that are bullied were done by an adult to another adult there would be SEVERE consequences. Why is it any different for kids especially in middle/high school? Seems like bullies get away with all sorts of crap that if they were an adult they'd be locked up in the slammer or at least be able to have some legal recourse.
So why is it bullies are given so much power and few consequences?
Because, many teachers either don't want to get involved or secretly support the bully. Of course the bully gets away with it. If they got punished a few times they wouldn't do it. But what often happens is the school looks the other way or if they can't punishes the victim for being the victim and others soon learn what happens. I was bullied mercilessly while in school because I was the geeky non athletic kid. Of course the teachers new it. And I learned really quick that fighting back just got me in more trouble because I would then get punished for fighting on top of having been bullied. Worst example was in PE one day. Several kids held me to the wall while others threw balls at my head and all the while the PE teacher was in the gym doing his best to appear busy so that he didn't "see" anything. Only after I was in a crumpled heap did he come over. Did he say anything to them? Nope. Just fussed at me about "why did I let them beat me up?" Yeah, sure I LET a gym class of guys beat the crap out of me. What a worthless sack of manure he was.
The schools in my area are VERY anti bullying! They have anonymous phone lines they can call and leave a message if you're being bullied. They talk about it constantly! If someone is being bullied and it can be proven, the bully will be suspended or even expelled. However, the schools can only do so much, it starts with the parents teaching their children to not bully!
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