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I would say that it's hard to judge one core area as being more important than another. But different topics within a core area are more important than others:
English: learning how to write is more important than Victorian literature
Social Studies: learning how the government functions is more important than learning about European history
Math: learning how to balance a checkbook is more important than multivariable calculus
Science: learning how the human body functions is more important than balancing chemical equations
For what it's worth, when I was in high school (I graduated in 1997), we had to take 4 years of English, 4 years of social studies, 4 years of gym (every other day for a full year, or every day for half a year), 2 years of math, 2 years of science, and 3 years of foreign language. Perhaps that can be interpreted as saying that our state considered English and social studies to be more important than math or science, and that they considered gym to be at the same level as math and science. Interestingly, it would mean that they considered foreign language to be more important than math or science (or gym), which I'm not sure most would agree with.
Also, not sure if it meant anything, but my high school's course numbering system could have indicated an implied ranking of subjects. Courses had a 3 digit number, where the first digit indicated the department:
100s: English
200s: Social studies
300s: Math
400s: Science / Foreign language / Health
500s: Business
600s: Home Ec (or whatever politically correct term they were using at the time) / Technology (politically correct term for shop, but also included a few other areas)
700s: Art / Music
800s: Gym
900s: Lunch
Again, that could be an implied hierarchy. But it was strange that science, foreign language, and health were all grouped together.
1 - Technical-Based Electives (Computer Science, Wood Shop, Home Economics)
2 - Health/Physical Education
3 - Math
4 - Science
...
...
...
5 - English
...
...
...
6 - Social Sciences
7 - Foreign Language
8 - Fine Arts
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
It's interesting that you mention home ec and shop (which tend to use other, politically correct terms these days). In my school district (and probably most), home ec and shop are required classes (for both genders) in middle school (grades 6-8), but are only electives in high school. In fact, if you are applying to an elite college, they see home ec and shop on your transcripts as negative, since they take the space that an academic class could be in.
In reality, home ec and shop are more useful classes for real life than just about any academic class is. Unfortunately, they are wasted by being taught too early in life, in grades 6-8, rather than in high school when you are closer to needing those skills. But any high school that required students to take such classes would, unfortunately, but their students at a disadvantage when it comes to college admissions.
I have come to the following conclusion:
Middle school prepares people for the real world
High school prepares people for college (and determines what colleges they get into)
College prepares people for an academic career that won't be available to most of us
Do you agree?
Taking these two together. First of all, 08grad, you're not going to be able to do Computer Science, Wood Shop, Home Economics if you can't read, write or do math. Secondly, shop and home ec can be taught at home as well. Nor can you learn health w/o knowing reading and math. The human body is very complex. As a health care provider, I know that every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks they know more than any HCP, but it's not true.
And yes, mitsguy, as we've discussed on so many other threads, virtually every school requires home ec and shop in middle school, and offers them as electives in high school. It was that way when I was in HS back in the Pleistocene, even. Most high schools do require some type of "practical arts" course, so colleges don't look askance unless you haven't taken a lot of rigorous academics as well, IME.
No, I don't agree with your conclusion. There are very few careers that one can have these days that only require an 8th grade education, and not even many that only require a HS diploma. The former has been the case for at least 50 years now, and the latter at least the past 20 years or so. College undergrad does not prepare one for an academic career. I don't think everyone "needs" college but I do think everyone needs some sort of post-HS education to have a meaningful career.
Taking these two together. First of all, 08grad, you're not going to be able to do Computer Science, Wood Shop, Home Economics if you can't read, write or do math. Secondly, shop and home ec can be taught at home as well. Nor can you learn health w/o knowing reading and math. The human body is very complex. As a health care provider, I know that every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks they know more than any HCP, but it's not true.
And yes, mitsguy, as we've discussed on so many other threads, virtually every school requires home ec and shop in middle school, and offers them as electives in high school. It was that way when I was in HS back in the Pleistocene, even. Most high schools do require some type of "practical arts" course, so colleges don't look askance unless you haven't taken a lot of rigorous academics as well, IME.
No, I don't agree with your conclusion. There are very few careers that one can have these days that only require an 8th grade education, and not even many that only require a HS diploma. The former has been the case for at least 50 years now, and the latter at least the past 20 years or so. College undergrad does not prepare one for an academic career. I don't think everyone "needs" college but I do think everyone needs some sort of post-HS education to have a meaningful career.
Very good post (I pre-date you...I was alive in the Eocene...at least that's what I think...I like to horse around!).
What I disagree with the other poster's conclusion is that it sort of follows what I refer to as the "either/or" mode of thinking that is so common in this forum (I do it from time to time myself). Education is not something that can be compartmentalized into sections that only prepare you for one thing. I was using basic arithmetic twice today...and that dated back to early primary school. I was using some computer skills that dated back to my first degree in computer programming in my first year of college. And so on.
And I agree with you completely that without a strong foundation in reading, writing, and math skills, one is going to be stymied in many job and/or career choices. As a principal I had to read educational journals, interpret test and survey results, and write observation and evaluation reports. In fact, back in 1970, while earning that first degree in computer programming in Rochester, NY, the big news for us was that an executive in Xerox, which was then headquartered in Rochester, had just gotten canned because while he was a whiz at technology, part of his job was writing a monthly report for the Board Of Directors...which he failed miserably at.
I think what mits may not be fully thinking about is that the reason shop and home ec classes are more prominent at the middle school level is that that is where they are developmentally reasonable. Real physics is not. Real chemistry is not. Subjects like that take more background in mathematics and a more basic level of science.
It's not a core class. Yes, I think all elementary and middle schools NEED weekly music, art, and gym classes, along with daily recess or walking, but they are not core classes.
I'm going to object to this.
Music opened my mind up to so much more of the worlds offerings.
I self taught myself to play piano.
I came from a very poor abusive family.
It was my escape.
The first piece I learned?
Beethoven Fur Elise.
I also sang in church chorus.
I once sang solo for the visiting bishop.
An Italian piece. Which introduced me to foreign language, harmonies, and pronunciation.
This by the time I was 10 years old.
I was the only student in my junior high music class to ever touch our music teachers grand piano. Ever. This was because during piano she heard me playing contemporary pieces from Beethoven, Mozart, etc. On electric keyboard.
She however passed on me singing at graduation because she felt my voice didn't quite have whatever.
The following year I was in high school.
The city has an all city concert with musical talents from all city schools participating.
I forget the solo piece I did. However she was crying after.
I sought her out and inquired.
She simply regretted after not letting me participate the year before.
My high school music teacher was the very best.
I was very ignorant of many of the world's offerings on various vocal music.
He enlightened me.
Enter junior year. As the lead soloist I wanted something modern.
He elected to go with a 45 min piece with offerings from the Beatles.
I reluctantly went along with it.
The ending notes to In My Life won me an award from the United States Marine Corps for my performance in that years concert.
It wasn't until later in my life I appreciated what he did.
Senior year.
9/11 happened.
I again was set up to have my swan song.
Due to 9/11, that was scrapped.
Enter Rent.
Seasons of love specifically.
I had NO appreciation for Rent. None. I didn't understand it nor did I really care at the time because it railroaded my swan song at graduation.
Fast forward to today and I've been fortunate to study Rent and see it 2x live.
It's one of the best to see live. Simple set, yet the music of Jonathan Larson for it's time speaks true still today. It highlights many core issues the world still has and ignores.
I also particpated in Jesus Christ Superstar and Guys and Dolls because of this.
It sparked an interest in Broadway production.
Music has mathematics and critical thinking skills involved.
It also entails culture and introduction to foreign language and culture.
Sadly i sold out to corporate America. Today I'm a truck driver who gave up his more liberal arts side to conform to ever living stresses on society.
However I still support the arts. Especially public music radio in Boston and I went to the Shubert theatre this weekend with my fiance to see Rent 20th anniversary tour.
I feel strongly that every child should have at the minimum a basic introduction to music at a young age.
Sorry for my long objection.
Signed a trump voting truck driver in Boston.
Of the 4 content areas usually considered to be "core" classes in middle and high school -- English, math, science, and social studies (I listed them alphabetically), how would you prioritize them, 1-4, with 1 being the highest priority.
In each grade level 7-12, which more specific areas ought to be taught in each of the cores?
1. English
2. Math
3. Science
4. Social Studies
As for grade level -
English - each grade should have a share of focus on literacy/reading appropriate to grade level, some literature appropriate to the grade, and some composition and related skills appropriate to grade. I think there is quite a bit of leeway here as long as students end up with a decent survey of literature, solid composition skills in a variety of genres but not to exclude the technical/business/practical arenas, and good reading/literacy skills including both in traditional and in more applied/technical contexts.
Math - depends on the ability of the students - the general goal is to get all generally college bound students through College Algebra by graduation, and those going into STEM fields through Trig and hopefully Calculus. Non-college bound students going into most vocational fields that pay well still need to do Algebra and basic trig and geometry pretty competently, but in a more applied format. Generally speaking, Geometry as its own course is the most disposable course in the traditional track, and one class that is rising in importance pretty quickly is statistics/data analysis. I would propose that it would be well to replace Geometry with a Statistics/reasoning/data analysis course and embed the needed geometry concepts into the Algebra courses. Financial literacy could be taught much more at the middle grades than they are - there is often little room for them for college track students in high school.
Science - the lack of basic science literacy in this country is pretty apparent in our politics and pretty alarming. I think students need more science than is typically currently required for graduation. In middle school, students should finish with solid understanding of scientific method, basic lab practices, scientific inquiry, and general knowledge of basic physics, basic chemistry, basic earth science, and basic biology. The goals should be to produce scientific literacy at a consumer level and to promote curiosity and solid investigative/critical thinking techniques. In high school, students should be required to take a year each of lab-based physical science, lab-based biology, lab-based chemistry and lab-based environmental/earth/astronomy science - perhaps a quarter of astronomy, a quarter of geology, a quarter of ecology, and a quarter of atmospheric/meteorological science imho. I think the lower level high school students are currently graduating with significant gaps in scientific literacy because they choose one area of focus and miss the others. Typically they take physical science, biology and one other - chemistry most often for higher students. Some AP-type students will take more. But depending on what that third choice is, they're missing out on every other science field and I think that should change. We should probably move away from subject-based courses and do more integrated science at least by quarter aside from the AP courses.
Social Studies - I am not sure what should be done in which particular grade, but students need to come out with an understanding of the U.S. government and political system, an understanding of the principles of economics, a basic understanding of U.S. history, a basic understanding of world history and culture, a solid understanding of current issues at local, state, national and international levels, and a good foundation in geography. In my district the world class is in 9th and I think we should push that to a higher level because I think the level at which we cover it is just too low today for a real political understanding of the world. I might like to see a quarter of current issues every year, a quarter of world/geography every year, a quarter of U.S. history every year, and a quarter of economics or government alternating every year. I know this doesn't work well with the current system but I am not convinced our system of year-long one-topic courses are serving us well - students do not hit the key topics and different levels of maturity - so they get U.S. History in a particular year and Government in some other particular year - they forget what they learned without revisiting it the next year and they also only get it at that particular grade level. So I would advocate for a more integrated approach, personally.
I'm going to object to this.
Music opened my mind up to so much more of the worlds offerings.
I self taught myself to play piano.
I came from a very poor abusive family.
It was my escape.
The first piece I learned?
Beethoven Fur Elise.
I also sang in church chorus.
I once sang solo for the visiting bishop.
An Italian piece. Which introduced me to foreign language, harmonies, and pronunciation.
This by the time I was 10 years old.
I was the only student in my junior high music class to ever touch our music teachers grand piano. Ever. This was because during piano she heard me playing contemporary pieces from Beethoven, Mozart, etc. On electric keyboard.
She however passed on me singing at graduation because she felt my voice didn't quite have whatever.
The following year I was in high school.
The city has an all city concert with musical talents from all city schools participating.
I forget the solo piece I did. However she was crying after.
I sought her out and inquired.
She simply regretted after not letting me participate the year before.
My high school music teacher was the very best.
I was very ignorant of many of the world's offerings on various vocal music.
He enlightened me.
Enter junior year. As the lead soloist I wanted something modern.
He elected to go with a 45 min piece with offerings from the Beatles.
I reluctantly went along with it.
The ending notes to In My Life won me an award from the United States Marine Corps for my performance in that years concert.
It wasn't until later in my life I appreciated what he did.
Senior year.
9/11 happened.
I again was set up to have my swan song.
Due to 9/11, that was scrapped.
Enter Rent.
Seasons of love specifically.
I had NO appreciation for Rent. None. I didn't understand it nor did I really care at the time because it railroaded my swan song at graduation.
Fast forward to today and I've been fortunate to study Rent and see it 2x live.
It's one of the best to see live. Simple set, yet the music of Jonathan Larson for it's time speaks true still today. It highlights many core issues the world still has and ignores.
I also particpated in Jesus Christ Superstar and Guys and Dolls because of this.
It sparked an interest in Broadway production.
Music has mathematics and critical thinking skills involved.
It also entails culture and introduction to foreign language and culture.
Sadly i sold out to corporate America. Today I'm a truck driver who gave up his more liberal arts side to conform to ever living stresses on society.
However I still support the arts. Especially public music radio in Boston and I went to the Shubert theatre this weekend with my fiance to see Rent 20th anniversary tour.
I feel strongly that every child should have at the minimum a basic introduction to music at a young age.
Sorry for my long objection.
Signed a trump voting truck driver in Boston.
I don't what you're objecting to. Music is not a core class. Do you know what a core content area is?
No one is saying music is not important. No one is saying it shouldn't be taught. It's still not a core class.
Nothing, and I do mean nothing, is as important as learning to read during these early years. The rest is nice, but should be "taught" only as a venue to teach non-fiction reading or practical use of math.
4-6
Reading
Math
Writing
Technology tools and appropriate uses
The rest is nice, but should be "taught" only as a venue to teach non-fiction reading or practical use of math.
7-12
Math
Writing
Reading for learning new information
Science
Social Studies
I was primarily a middle school science teacher. There is no more important thing schools should focus on than reading and reading comprehension. If you can read and have enough reading comprehension ability to learn from what you have read, the rest can be self-learned at a later point. Math, is the second most important. Many things, including many science concepts can never truly be understood without understanding math.
I agree that K-3 is all about reading, writing and basic math skills. Our state (Indiana) from my understanding is only one of 16 that requires an IRead3 test to third graders. It evaluates their reading comprehension level toward the end of the year. If they are not at a third grade reading level then (almost 4th) Indiana automatically requires summer school and retake of the test. Failure to pass the test a second time can lead to being retained in 3rd grade. Up to 3rd grade children are learning to read; however, starting in fourth grade children are reading to learn.
English - each grade should have a share of focus on literacy/reading appropriate to grade level, some literature appropriate to the grade, and some composition and related skills appropriate to grade. I think there is quite a bit of leeway here as long as students end up with a decent survey of literature, solid composition skills in a variety of genres but not to exclude the technical/business/practical arenas, and good reading/literacy skills including both in traditional and in more applied/technical contexts.
Math - depends on the ability of the students - the general goal is to get all generally college bound students through College Algebra by graduation, and those going into STEM fields through Trig and hopefully Calculus. Non-college bound students going into most vocational fields that pay well still need to do Algebra and basic trig and geometry pretty competently, but in a more applied format. Generally speaking, Geometry as its own course is the most disposable course in the traditional track, and one class that is rising in importance pretty quickly is statistics/data analysis. I would propose that it would be well to replace Geometry with a Statistics/reasoning/data analysis course and embed the needed geometry concepts into the Algebra courses. Financial literacy could be taught much more at the middle grades than they are - there is often little room for them for college track students in high school.
Science - the lack of basic science literacy in this country is pretty apparent in our politics and pretty alarming. I think students need more science than is typically currently required for graduation. In middle school, students should finish with solid understanding of scientific method, basic lab practices, scientific inquiry, and general knowledge of basic physics, basic chemistry, basic earth science, and basic biology. The goals should be to produce scientific literacy at a consumer level and to promote curiosity and solid investigative/critical thinking techniques. In high school, students should be required to take a year each of lab-based physical science, lab-based biology, lab-based chemistry and lab-based environmental/earth/astronomy science - perhaps a quarter of astronomy, a quarter of geology, a quarter of ecology, and a quarter of atmospheric/meteorological science imho. I think the lower level high school students are currently graduating with significant gaps in scientific literacy because they choose one area of focus and miss the others. Typically they take physical science, biology and one other - chemistry most often for higher students. Some AP-type students will take more. But depending on what that third choice is, they're missing out on every other science field and I think that should change. We should probably move away from subject-based courses and do more integrated science at least by quarter aside from the AP courses.
Social Studies - I am not sure what should be done in which particular grade, but students need to come out with an understanding of the U.S. government and political system, an understanding of the principles of economics, a basic understanding of U.S. history, a basic understanding of world history and culture, a solid understanding of current issues at local, state, national and international levels, and a good foundation in geography. In my district the world class is in 9th and I think we should push that to a higher level because I think the level at which we cover it is just too low today for a real political understanding of the world. I might like to see a quarter of current issues every year, a quarter of world/geography every year, a quarter of U.S. history every year, and a quarter of economics or government alternating every year. I know this doesn't work well with the current system but I am not convinced our system of year-long one-topic courses are serving us well - students do not hit the key topics and different levels of maturity - so they get U.S. History in a particular year and Government in some other particular year - they forget what they learned without revisiting it the next year and they also only get it at that particular grade level. So I would advocate for a more integrated approach, personally.
It's interesting that you mention home ec and shop (which tend to use other, politically correct terms these days). In my school district (and probably most), home ec and shop are required classes (for both genders) in middle school (grades 6-8), but are only electives in high school. In fact, if you are applying to an elite college, they see home ec and shop on your transcripts as negative, since they take the space that an academic class could be in.
While I agree about the importance of home ec and shop for real life, many, perhaps most, places don't offer it in either middle school or high school. Wish they did, but they don't.
In reality, home ec and shop are more useful classes for real life than just about any academic class is. Unfortunately, they are wasted by being taught too early in life, in grades 6-8, rather than in high school when you are closer to needing those skills. But any high school that required students to take such classes would, unfortunately, but their students at a disadvantage when it comes to college admissions.
I have come to the following conclusion:
Middle school prepares people for the real world
High school prepares people for college (and determines what colleges they get into)
College prepares people for an academic career that won't be available to most of us
Do you agree?
As for the conclusion, nope. Middle school maybe prepares you for high school, but not everyone is prepared. And with the growing 9th grade academy type school, it seems it we're now adding a intermediate grade to do what middle school should.
High school somewhat prepares people for college, but leaves out important study skills and basic "how to college" information. Even with everything colleges do to ease the transition, freshman year is still tough where students have to deal with being responsible for their learning and need to "learn how to learn."
College somewhat prepares you for post college work. That is it gives you the basic knowledge to learn after college. Very few who go to college are heading down an academic track.
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