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The point of voucher systems is to make THAT the solution & ignore the districts then that need help.
In your opinion. I've given clear and numerous examples of how public schools are left with more money for fewer students when voucher students withdraw. If public schools still can't pull themselves up from underachievement with the surplus funding, they may be beyond help.
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Additionally you keep referring to the voucher system as the voucher/choice system. Parents do currently have a choice; it is just that some choices are free & others aren't - pretty simple really.
Too many low-income children are trapped in their assigned (no choice) underperforming local public schools because their families can't pay the surcharge required to access a good education. That's discrimination bordering on exclusion and elitism.
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And given how well the for profit system has worked in the health care sector I'm not about to turn over our children's education as well...
This must be a misunderstanding. Many private schools are not-for-profit.
As has already described vouchers will still create a trap for the disenfranchised child as many of them will not receive enough voucher money to actually attend a private school. Further, if their school is now being ignored & shuts down (which you describe as the natural consequence of a non-competitive school) exactly where do the kids who don't get enough voucher money go? Do they get bussed possibly hours away? Keep in mind the disenfranchised tend not to have actively involved parents who are financially (or otherwise) capable of researching an alternative.
No, once again building upon a system that has been shown to be successful for well over 100 years vs completely changing the infrastructure & funding standards is the answer. And just b/c you don't like that some choices are free and other choices might (or might not) have different financial implications doesn't mean the choice doesn't exist. That is called life.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
In your opinion. I've given clear and numerous examples of how public schools are left with more money for fewer students when voucher students withdraw. If public schools still can't pull themselves up from underachievement with the surplus funding, they may be beyond help.
Too many low-income children are trapped in their assigned (no choice) underperforming local public schools because their families can't pay the surcharge required to access a good education. That's discrimination bordering on exclusion and elitism.
This must be a misunderstanding. Many private schools are not-for-profit.
I don't have a problem if the "disenfranchised" child scores at a level commensurate with the other kids in the private school, but to give vouchers to kids just because they live in a poor area and want to go to "the rich kids school" doesn't work for me. I, and my wife, work our collective backsides off to be able to send our kids to private schools. I sure don't want the classroom disrutped by a kid who doesn't value the opportunity.
As has already described vouchers will still create a trap for the disenfranchised child as many of them will not receive enough voucher money to actually attend a private school. Further, if their school is now being ignored & shuts down (which you describe as the natural consequence of a non-competitive school) exactly where do the kids who don't get enough voucher money go?
Is there a reason the public schools will not be able to provide a better education to the fewer remaining students that the schools will have after the voucher students withdraw, with the surplus taxpayer funding withdrawn students will be leaving behind for public schools' use?
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No, once again building upon a system that has been shown to be successful for well over 100 years vs completely changing the infrastructure & funding standards is the answer.
Successful in your area; not so in many others. Vouchers don't change anything about the public providing for our society's children's education except possibly the education provider.
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And just b/c you don't like that some choices are free and other choices might (or might not) have different financial implications doesn't mean the choice doesn't exist. That is called life.
This isn't about what I like or don't like. This is about eradicating the discrimination, exclusion, and elitism that is openly exhibited against those who can't afford to pay the extra surcharge required to access a good education. And, it's about the best use of taxpayer money - the best return on investment, if you will.
The surplus is an imaginary, hypothetical one; the disenfranchised schools have other needs as described above which require different sorts of funds and attention. The voucher system is at best untried & unproven & at worst has demonstrated that it will cause MORE children to fall through the cracks, provide more tax relief for the elite and give the Government an excuse to turn their collective backs on improving public schools in the areas with the most need.
The public school systems are successful in many areas, in many states. They can be very easily used as an example to improve the existing infrastructure in other areas. However it will take a realignment of funds or perhaps more funds for enhanced security, additional numbers of specialized staff to provide more individualized tutoring and education; teaching at an individualized level that progresses children based upon their aptitude etc. so that these schools can reach the same level as the public schools that are in areas with a higher SES.
In reality discrimination, exclusion & elitism will only be exacerbated by the voucher system.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Is there a reason the public schools will not be able to provide a better education to the fewer remaining students that the schools will have after the voucher students withdraw, with the surplus taxpayer funding withdrawn students will be leaving behind for public schools' use?
Successful in your area; not so in many others. Vouchers don't change anything about the public providing for our society's children's education except possibly the education provider.
This isn't about what I like or don't like. This is about eradicating the discrimination, exclusion, and elitism that is openly exhibited against those who can't afford to pay the extra surcharge required to access a good education. And, it's about the best use of taxpayer money - the best return on investment, if you will.
The surplus is an imaginary, hypothetical one; the disenfranchised schools have other needs as described above which require different sorts of funds and attention.
A higher value number minus a lower value number always equals a number greater than zero. That's not hypothetical. Taxpayer funding is taxpayer funding. What do you mean by 'different sorts of funds'?
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The voucher system is at best untried & unproven...
It has been proven effective at raising achievement levels for groups of students. Citations have already been provided.
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...& at worst has demonstrated that it will cause MORE children to fall through the cracks,
This is purely a problem of lax regulators - another group of publicly funded employees who have failed these kids.
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provide more tax relief for the elite
This seems to be a personal axe to grind. Again, everyone still pays taxes. No one is getting tax relief. The only thing that changes under the voucher/choice system is that a student's education provider might change, with the subsequent effect of surplus funding (over the voucher amount) being left with public school.
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and give the Government an excuse to turn their collective backs on improving public schools in the areas with the most need.
Leaving surplus funding for fewer students is not turning collective backs on improving public schools. Even though public schools would have an increase in per student spending after voucher students withdraw, it has already been established that high levels of funding do not solve the problems that underperforming schools have. Unlimited funding failed to improve academic achievement in Kansas City's public schools, and Washington D.C.'s public schools spend $13,000 per student with dismal results.
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The public school systems are successful in many areas, in many states. They can be very easily used as an example to improve the existing infrastructure in other areas.
The first warning that our American education system was deteriorating went out in 1983.
Archived: A Nation At Risk (http://www.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html - broken link)
25 years later, not much has changed.
College professors are complaining about the dismal lack of educational preparation their students have, even professors at our most elite colleges and universities.
The Other Crisis in American Education - 91.11 (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/educatio/singalf.htm - broken link)
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However it will take a realignment of funds or perhaps more funds for enhanced security, additional numbers of specialized staff to provide more individualized tutoring and education; teaching at an individualized level that progresses children based upon their aptitude etc. so that these schools can reach the same level as the public schools that are in areas with a higher SES.
You've just described what happens at many private schools, though it is provided at a much lower cost than that which public schools expend.
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In reality discrimination, exclusion & elitism will only be exacerbated by the voucher system.
In your opinion. I'll leave you with the opinions expressed by the voucher/scholarship recipients and their parents in the Mathematica-Harvard study...
Private schools were more orderly than public schools, according to parents. Compared with public school parents, private school parents were less likely to report that the following were serious problems at their child’s school: students destroying property, tardiness, missing classes, fighting, cheating, and racial conflict. For example, 64 percent of the parents with a child in public school reported that fighting was a serious problem compared with 34 percent of the parents with a child in private school.
Private-school students reported better learning conditions at their school than did public-school students. Sixty-five percent of private-school students said that students get along with teachers while only 49 percent of public-school students said the same. Private-school students were also more likely to report that students are proud to attend their school and that behavior rules are strict. They were also less likely to feel put down by teachers or to report a lot of cheating by other students.
Parents of students in private schools said that they received more communication from their school about their children than did parents in public schools.
Parents of children who switched from public to private schools were much more satisfied with their schools than parents of children who remained in the public schools. For example, when asked to grade their schools, nearly 42 percent of the parents with a child in private school gave their school an “A,” compared with just 10 percent of parents with a child in public school.
I elaborated on other, extraneous funding issues that are present in underachieving school systems - you chose to ignore it & instead relied on subtracting hypothetical voucher amounts for one district & came up with a hypothetical surplus.
Additionally citations have been provided which demonstrate the opposite regarding efficacy for improving achievement. At best it is highly controversial & a strategy implemented in a few test cases in which the results are considered mixed at best.
You may FEEL that people are paying their full share of taxes when they receive vouchers back & can then use said tax money to pay for a less regulated education; but in fact it is not the same. We all pay into the pot & the funds are to be managed by our elected officials to provide a standard public education. It is working very well in many places; the manner in which colleges rank several high achieving public school districts demonstrate this. Once again however these schools are in areas with higher SES. Areas that are disenfranchised will have different needs that must be attended to in order raise the schools up to the level of these high performing schools. This may require a re -allotment of funds or a perhaps additional funding - whatever the case may be it is worth it to ensure that a transparent public school system held to more stringent legal standards is still available to the students in the area.
Additionally, as described before the students in the poorer areas are not likely to receive vouchers of $7+K; rather they may get something in the order of $1500 which will not provide for a private education. If the voucher system is implemented as the solution; with a close 'em if their not working alternative for underachieving schools, the children who are most at risk will be left behind even worse.
And of course parents who are paying tuition for private schools like the education their children are receiving; they voluntarily sign up for it & pay hefty tuition bills. They may in fact be getting a better education then offered in their public district or not - it depends on each situation.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
A higher value number minus a lower value number always equals a number greater than zero. That's not hypothetical. Taxpayer funding is taxpayer funding. What do you mean by 'different sorts of funds'?
It has been proven effective at raising achievement levels for groups of students. Citations have already been provided.
This is purely a problem of lax regulators - another group of publicly funded employees who have failed these kids.
This seems to be a personal axe to grind. Again, everyone still pays taxes. No one is getting tax relief. The only thing that changes under the voucher/choice system is that a student's education provider might change, with the subsequent effect of surplus funding (over the voucher amount) being left with public school.
Leaving surplus funding for fewer students is not turning collective backs on improving public schools. Even though public schools would have an increase in per student spending after voucher students withdraw, it has already been established that high levels of funding do not solve the problems that underperforming schools have. Unlimited funding failed to improve academic achievement in Kansas City's public schools, and Washington D.C.'s public schools spend $13,000 per student with dismal results.
The first warning that our American education system was deteriorating went out in 1983.
Archived: A Nation At Risk (http://www.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html - broken link)
25 years later, not much has changed.
College professors are complaining about the dismal lack of educational preparation their students have, even professors at our most elite colleges and universities.
The Other Crisis in American Education - 91.11 (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/educatio/singalf.htm - broken link)
You've just described what happens at many private schools, though it is provided at a much lower cost than that which public schools expend.
In your opinion. I'll leave you with the opinions expressed by the voucher/scholarship recipients and their parents in the Mathematica-Harvard study...
Private schools were more orderly than public schools, according to parents. Compared with public school parents, private school parents were less likely to report that the following were serious problems at their child’s school: students destroying property, tardiness, missing classes, fighting, cheating, and racial conflict. For example, 64 percent of the parents with a child in public school reported that fighting was a serious problem compared with 34 percent of the parents with a child in private school.
Private-school students reported better learning conditions at their school than did public-school students. Sixty-five percent of private-school students said that students get along with teachers while only 49 percent of public-school students said the same. Private-school students were also more likely to report that students are proud to attend their school and that behavior rules are strict. They were also less likely to feel put down by teachers or to report a lot of cheating by other students.
Parents of students in private schools said that they received more communication from their school about their children than did parents in public schools.
Parents of children who switched from public to private schools were much more satisfied with their schools than parents of children who remained in the public schools. For example, when asked to grade their schools, nearly 42 percent of the parents with a child in private school gave their school an “A,” compared with just 10 percent of parents with a child in public school.
There are already a few countries in the world that have implemented various forms of school voucher and free choice school programs, to the overwhelmingly warm reception of the population.
A broad review of countries that have either already implemented a school voucher program, or offer something akin to that.
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