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Now, I don't know about other high schools, but this is the one I attended: Washington State Report Card
Our school is a standard high school. The district, a standard district. We aren't perfect, but whatever we're doing, is working better than the rest of the state.
We have the models necessary in place. They are public schools with outstanding records. We merely need to adapt those models to other schools, districts and states.
You believe your high school performs well on Washington State standards, but are you aware that Washington's standards have been graded a D- in The State of State Standards 2006 review?
Placing your cursor over the state of Washington in the following link reveals the D- grade. Clicking on the state of Washington brings up the detailed review of Washington's standards. Thomas B. Fordham Institute - The State of State Standards 2006 (http://www.edexcellence.net/institute/publication/publication.cfm?id=358 - broken link)
Even if some public schools appear to be performing well on state testing, they may still be undereducating their students.
Rabbi, correct me if you're wrong, but the two main arguments I see in your post is:
We waste a lost of money anyway on various things. So what if this is a waste?
And: Only educators know the educational process.
Wasting money is never a good thing. What about other services, like Police/Fire? or the Interstate system? Our goal should always be to reduce government spending. Sending vouchers out doesn't do that.
NO. I was not at all trying to insinuate that any money should be wasted at all. I honestly and firmly believe that in the ultimate long run the voucher program will save much money as it has been mentioned before on this thread, that it would cost far less per capita to educated a child through the vouchers /private education sector then to continuously pump money into a public school system that is not necessarily working for the child.
NO! Tax funds should never be wasted, and always spent as efficiently and responsibly as possible.
But I was trying to impart, and even if the cost of a voucher program would be slightly more expensive than the current way of educating children, then who amongst us would not be willing to spend that extra amount to ensure the most beneficial education for our children. Funding for education in whatever way is never ever a waste.
Through a voucher program, they will be much more accountability each and every dollar expanded per child than there ever will be in any public school system throughout this country today. The current accountability of funding in today's public school systems is close to zero.
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And, don't you think that every single person who has gone through a school system has SOME insight as to what worked and what didn't? As a matter of fact, the teachers who's jobs depend on them convincing the people that they're necessary are biased.
The parents who want the 'best education' for their particular child surely are biased.
Its the people, those of us who do not have a vested stake in the situation that are unbiased and able to come to a just and fair conclusion.
I'm actually you're including in your understanding of those of us who "do not have a vested stake in a situation that are unbiased", for aside for having children in elementary school, I am an active educator involved in both classroom and administration work.
It is true that every single person that has gone through a school system understands how the education process works to some degree. Each based on his own understanding and memories of his time spent in school. Some better than others.
I would assume however that you would agree that when searching for any medical advice or medical care, especially emergency medical care, you look for those actively involved in the field of medicine. Not merely those who have spent time in hospital visiting patients or as spectators. Nor would you seek mothers whos only experience was childbirth in hospital; although they do know somewhat to the extent of the ins and outs of the operations of a hospital.
I highly doubt that he would seek retired doctors and nurses to aid you at your time of illness.
You'd surely seek out the most highly skilled and proficiently trained specialists in any field that you require attention - not leave it to the whim of those who have nice assumptions.
So, I firmly believe its true regarding education as well. That those actively involved on a day-to-day basis within the school systems and educational departments are the best ones who could and should make proper decisions for the education of children.
As for the argument that parents are involved and understand the needs of whims of their children in regard to education, yes on a small scale that's true. But the educators and those involved in administration tend to thousands upon thousands of situations on a daily basis - honing and developing their own skills regarding children and the educational process - that would outpace even parents of the biggest families a thousand to one.
Naturally everybody has wonderful ideas and comments and deep insights into the educational process - some far more beneficial than others - and thats the purpose of this post and this thread.
Good relative to what? I don't consider public schools 'good' when America's top students rank at or near the bottom when compared to other countries' top students.
Is this actual fact that has been looked at and documented? Or is this just anecdotal or what the media has trained us to believe? Can you point us to some research supporting this because I have a hard time believing this is true. I can see it more at the average University level but are Oxford and Cambridge freshman students better than Harvard and Yale freshman students?
Jenn, Harvard and Yale are private universities. And they're universities, not the K-12 system, which every child is required to attend.
Faina, Isn't it in everyone's best interest to support education for everyone?
Rabbi:
I agree that I would totally seek solid medical opinions rather than a patient who has only experienced the surgery or whatever operation. I do however recognize that the patient has the ability to evaluate his or her experience, and determine what was good and what was bad.
Same is true for the education system.
But, the education system differs from the medical system. If a surgeon doesn't perform his job right, he loses his medical license. If an educator doesn't teach students effectively, he doesn't lose his teaching license? (Interesting notion, maybe we can give that more thought)
The reason I mention bias, is that a lot of educators are biased. And they are complacent in what they do. You definitely do not appear to be one of them.
Parents however, I think have a bias in that they want the BEST EDUCATION FOR THEIR CHILD!!! (Emphasis purposefully added) without a lot of regard for the rest of the country. And, I think that if we institute vouchers, our implementation of it needs to coincide with wide-spread reform of our public school system. Because, otherwise I don't believe it'll happen. The public system will falter and fail, and we'll be left with a purely private system with no manageable standards. Unless we institute standards as it is. But, how do we standardize science? The religious private schools may not support darwinian theory. Etc. We need to educate our students effectively. And not all private schools are ready to deal with that.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
You believe your high school performs well on Washington State standards, but are you aware that Washington's standards have been graded a D- in The State of State Standards 2006 review?
Placing your cursor over the state of Washington in the following link reveals the D- grade. Clicking on the state of Washington brings up the detailed review of Washington's standards. Thomas B. Fordham Institute - The State of State Standards 2006 (http://www.edexcellence.net/institute/publication/publication.cfm?id=358 - broken link)
Even if some public schools appear to be performing well on state testing, they may still be undereducating their students.
Well, it appears that very few states have an A rating according to that report. And I'm curious, what kind of bias does that group have?
And I'm not disagreeing that students are undereducated. I firmly believe that we should all be bilingual by the end of middle school. It'll help us out immensely in the long run.
However, according to: School vouchers slow to spread
Only 6 states have voucher programs.
And only one of those states has a grade of C-, the rest are D- to D+. Some of these systems have been around for at least 9 years on a statewide level (Florida). Yet, its nowhere near the A rating of Mass, or Cali. Your vouchers are NOT working.
Faina, Isn't it in everyone's best interest to support education for everyone?
I think its only fair and only logical, that if my daughter does not attend public schools, that I either get a tax break or if there is a voucher system, I can apply that towards her private education. I have nothing against education for everyone, thats what the public school system is, however if we are not involved in it, if we send her to private, then I see no reason to support it. Again, it is punishing those with money, making us pay twice, for public and private education.
Also, more parents would be able to afford a private education if that were the case, and that would be in the best interest of many, many children.
I think its only fair and only logical, that if my daughter does not attend public schools, that I either get a tax break or if there is a voucher system, I can apply that towards her private education. I have nothing against education for everyone, thats what the public school system is, however if we are not involved in it, if we send her to private, then I see no reason to support it. Again, it is punishing those with money, making us pay twice, for public and private education.
Also, more parents would be able to afford a private education if that were the case, and that would be in the best interest of many, many children.
Its not a punishment. You're making the choice to not use the public school system. How can they 'punish' you. For your choice to use a private school. Your tax dollars aren't JUST for your child.
Well, it appears that very few states have an A rating according to that report. And I'm curious, what kind of bias does that group have?
They may have a bias towards an academic education. Clicking on the links to the full report for each review explains in detail why each standard received the grade it did and would provide more information on what the reviewers were looking for.
Information on the group's mission:
Thomas B. Fordham Foundation - Mission (http://www.edexcellence.net/foundation/global/page.cfm?id=6 - broken link)
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However, according to: School vouchers slow to spread
Only 6 states have voucher programs.
And only one of those states has a grade of C-, the rest are D- to D+. Some of these systems have been around for at least 9 years on a statewide level (Florida). Yet, its nowhere near the A rating of Mass, or Cali. Your vouchers are NOT working.
The grades are for the state standards, which are written by the state boards of education. They don't measure students' academic achievement.
If the state boards of education don't want to improve their academic standards, how much hope will there ever be for improving our country's public education systems?
Vouchers would be a way out of a public system that is mired in low academic standards.
Is this actual fact that has been looked at and documented? Or is this just anecdotal or what the media has trained us to believe? Can you point us to some research supporting this because I have a hard time believing this is true.
"A separate examination of advanced mathematics and physics comparing our students taking pre-calculus or calculus and our students taking physics with advanced mathematics and physics students in other nations shows that the performance of our advanced students is among the lowest of countries participating in TIMSS."
...from the end of the 2nd paragraph:
Archived: TIMSS 12th-Grade Results Show Need to Build a Strong Foundation, Set Higher Standards, Require Tougher Courses, and Ensure Well-prepared and Effective Teachers (http://www.ed.gov/inits/TIMSS/overview.html - broken link)
And more recently...
This chart shows the average PISA math scores of the very best students – the 95th percentile (blue bars) – in 20 advanced nations. The United States most advanced students did not do very well. They were next to last of the best students in 20 advanced nations. America's very best students did not do as well as the best students of most other advanced nations.
Of course I am. I am made to pay for a school system that I do not use. Of course everyone pays, but we are in a higher income bracket, so we pay more.
Then on top of that, we do not use the system.
Think of it like insurance, we pay for health insurance, for the providers in our network. If we choose to go outside of the network, we have to pay more out of pocket, but our insurance still covers some of it, since its healthcare.
Same with schools, if we go outside of the public school system and go to private schools, then some of that money we pay for public should be applied to the private school tuition.
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