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Old 09-25-2017, 05:25 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,672,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
In my experience as a health care provider, yes, people do just that! And/or if the HCP diagnoses the kid with "A", they'll say "Are you sure it's not "B" "? I bet mechanics have heard the same.
Do they also tell you how to treat other patients? It is very different to ask about your personal treatment than to say "I have 5 children so know as much about treating children as you do".

 
Old 09-25-2017, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,428,369 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Do they also tell you how to treat other patients? It is very different to ask about your personal treatment than to say "I have 5 children so know as much about treating children as you do".
Yes, sometimes. And most definitely on the CD health/parenting forums. Keep trying this "that's different" thingy, though.
 
Old 09-25-2017, 05:32 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,672,880 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Yes. I do not suggest ways they can fix it better, but I will tell them what worked before if the child had a simlar broken arm and they we healed properly.

I always discuss options with any mechanic and they had better have answers. 99% of the time I can do the work myself but do not have time. In some areas, I have more experience than their techs who do the ork - so Yes. I have given mechanics tips on how to do things on a particular car that they came back amazed and said it saved them a ton of time. Many times, I know more about the car than the mechanic will. Again they must generalize, and they have little or no experience with that particular car, I may have 20 or more years experience with that particular year/model.

When I get a hair cut, I tell them I have really severe cowlicks in the back and exactly what they need to do to address them. Why? because I have decades of experience with cowlicks and while I could nto cut someones hair, I certainly know what works and what does not work.

We particularly told Doctors what we wanted them to consider and not consider in diagnosing one of our daughters. I tell them that all the time in my personal issues. Do not pursue XXX or do any testing. We have already ruled that out. There is no point in chasing a diagnosis that has already been ruled out. Further we (wifey) had studied our daughters particular condition far more intensely than any doctor we ever encountered. Why? Dr.s study everything. My wife studied one particular condition. Likewise, my sister knows more about Lymes disease than most of the doctors she encounters. Why? Because she has had the disease for over 20 years and spend most of her life studying it and searching for any possible treatment or cure. How many doctors have studied Lymes disease exclusively for 20 years? Do the doctors listen? Absolutely - or we go elsewhere.

I tell our company chef different techniques I have used or seen used in cooking or tweaks to recipes. He never says shut up you are not a chef. He listens, sometimes writes things down, comes back with them the next week or month. Lots of people give him ideas and he dies not dismiss them because they are not chefs. He learns and broadens his knowledge, he tries things and sees how they turn out, and becomes a better chef.

I have only ridden a public bus about four times and that was 33 years ago, but taxi drivers? Yes I have told them better or faster ways to get where I am going. Why, I have gone there hundreds of times. I may know a better way. The will give it a try and if it works out, say thank you - now I am a better taxi driver for this location.

Working with contractors on our house, I frequently shared methods, tools, tricks with them that I learned from watching other contractors and they adopted them and became better contractors. Sometimes they tried it and said they did not like the method, but they never said "Where is your license? How dare you give me ideas" Sometimes I have even discussed things I thought were done improperly, they argues and the looked it up or learned from the inspector I was right. Not always, but they did not just dismiss the concept and walk away. They learned something new and became better contractors as a result.

I teach people how to throw axes knives and atlatl. I and very proficient. However an 8 year old kid who was just learning, after I showed him the "right way" to throw knives said "I saw someone throwing them like this yesterday. I experimented with it and learned a cool new way to throw that I had never seen or heard of before.

In my profession do I listen to a client's proposed argument? Do I listen if they tell me something a previous lawyer did that worked? Absolutely. Clients often provide some remarkable insight or suggestions. Sometimes their ideas win the case and then i get to take credit for it. Sometimes even if I am uncertain of an idea or disagree with it, I still might give it a flier and see if it gets any traction. Sometimes I am surprised. I am not arrogant enough to think I know all there is to know about my profession. A young lawyer 1-5 years out of law schools would be an idiot to think they know anything at all. They need advice from every living being, but especially someone who has used services of 150 plus lawyers.

Likewise teachers are foolish to dismiss what parents have learned from other teachers, especially younger teachers, but any teacher. To think you know it all and cannot benefit from something different is the definition of stupid.

Teachers are the only profession where I have encountered this arrogance. I cannot think of anyone else who will not listen to suggestions, and even give it a try. For example, "We have learned that many kids learn better if material is presented in multiple ways not just audibly, but visually and tactically where possible. In classes where this was used, it worked gret and all the kids learned a lot. Have ou ever heard of this?

"Don't tell me how to teach, I went to college and have been teaching for three years."

So is there a single teacher out there who has worked with 150 teachers, watched their methods, seen what works and what does not work in their classrooms, talked with many of their students daily or at least monthly (not counting our own kids), watched them study, watched their progress in learning? If not, why would you not listen to someone who has?

Well at least you are consistent in your inappropriate behavior with professionals. Good for you.

But you have NOT "worked with 150 teaches". The fact that you think being a parent of a student means you have "worked with" them is literally laughable. My stepmother is a veterinarian, I worked in her office as a teen, despite actually working there I wouldn't presume to say "worked with" her on the hundreds of surgeries I was there for, let alone give her unsolicited advice.

An example of why your self proclaimed expertise is nonsense is the fact you think differtiation of learning styles means students learn better. It has been definitively proven not so. People prefer learning in whatever style they like but it has been shown to have zero statistical effect on their retention or learning.
 
Old 09-25-2017, 05:32 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,092 posts, read 60,158,471 times
Reputation: 60682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Yes. I do not suggest ways they can fix it better, but I will tell them what worked before if the child had a simlar broken arm and they we healed properly.

I always discuss options with any mechanic and they had better have answers. 99% of the time I can do the work myself but do not have time. In some areas, I have more experience than their techs who do the ork - so Yes. I have given mechanics tips on how to do things on a particular car that they came back amazed and said it saved them a ton of time. Many times, I know more about the car than the mechanic will. Again they must generalize, and they have little or no experience with that particular car, I may have 20 or more years experience with that particular year/model.

When I get a hair cut, I tell them I have really severe cowlicks in the back and exactly what they need to do to address them. Why? because I have decades of experience with cowlicks and while I could nto cut someones hair, I certainly know what works and what does not work.

We particularly told Doctors what we wanted them to consider and not consider in diagnosing one of our daughters. I tell them that all the time in my personal issues. Do not pursue XXX or do any testing. We have already ruled that out. There is no point in chasing a diagnosis that has already been ruled out. Further we (wifey) had studied our daughters particular condition far more intensely than any doctor we ever encountered. Why? Dr.s study everything. My wife studied one particular condition. Likewise, my sister knows more about Lymes disease than most of the doctors she encounters. Why? Because she has had the disease for over 20 years and spend most of her life studying it and searching for any possible treatment or cure. How many doctors have studied Lymes disease exclusively for 20 years? Do the doctors listen? Absolutely - or we go elsewhere.

I tell our company chef different techniques I have used or seen used in cooking or tweaks to recipes. He never says shut up you are not a chef. He listens, sometimes writes things down, comes back with them the next week or month. Lots of people give him ideas and he dies not dismiss them because they are not chefs. He learns and broadens his knowledge, he tries things and sees how they turn out, and becomes a better chef.

I have only ridden a public bus about four times and that was 33 years ago, but taxi drivers? Yes I have told them better or faster ways to get where I am going. Why, I have gone there hundreds of times. I may know a better way. The will give it a try and if it works out, say thank you - now I am a better taxi driver for this location.

Working with contractors on our house, I frequently shared methods, tools, tricks with them that I learned from watching other contractors and they adopted them and became better contractors. Sometimes they tried it and said they did not like the method, but they never said "Where is your license? How dare you give me ideas" Sometimes I have even discussed things I thought were done improperly, they argues and the looked it up or learned from the inspector I was right. Not always, but they did not just dismiss the concept and walk away. They learned something new and became better contractors as a result.

I teach people how to throw axes knives and atlatl. I and very proficient. However an 8 year old kid who was just learning, after I showed him the "right way" to throw knives said "I saw someone throwing them like this yesterday. I experimented with it and learned a cool new way to throw that I had never seen or heard of before.

In my profession do I listen to a client's proposed argument? Do I listen if they tell me something a previous lawyer did that worked? Absolutely. Clients often provide some remarkable insight or suggestions. Sometimes their ideas win the case and then i get to take credit for it. Sometimes even if I am uncertain of an idea or disagree with it, I still might give it a flier and see if it gets any traction. Sometimes I am surprised. I am not arrogant enough to think I know all there is to know about my profession. A young lawyer 1-5 years out of law schools would be an idiot to think they know anything at all. They need advice from every living being, but especially someone who has used services of 150 plus lawyers.

Likewise teachers are foolish to dismiss what parents have learned from other teachers, especially younger teachers, but any teacher. To think you know it all and cannot benefit from something different is the definition of stupid.

Teachers are the only profession where I have encountered this arrogance. I cannot think of anyone else who will not listen to suggestions, and even give it a try. For example, "We have learned that many kids learn better if material is presented in multiple ways not just audibly, but visually and tactically where possible. In classes where this was used, it worked gret and all the kids learned a lot. Have ou ever heard of this?

"Don't tell me how to teach, I went to college and have been teaching for three years."

So is there a single teacher out there who has worked with 150 teachers, watched their methods, seen what works and what does not work in their classrooms, talked with many of their students daily or at least monthly (not counting our own kids), watched them study, watched their progress in learning? If not, why would you not listen to someone who has?
You're a lawyer? And you're accusing teachers of arrogance. Just out of curiosity as an attorney would you accept advice from a non-lawyer on how to handle another client's litigation?

You've moved the goalposts. You're now talking about your kid. Before you were giving global advice.
 
Old 09-25-2017, 05:44 PM
 
1,409 posts, read 1,071,502 times
Reputation: 2943
People don't usually enjoy being told they aren't doing a good job or told what to do by laymen.... This is true in all fields but especially professional ones.

Edit: this behavior is somewhat irrational IMHO but I suppose there are reasons it can rub people the wrong way. In any case it's an odd little cultural hang up... And not one unique to teachers.

Last edited by history nerd; 09-25-2017 at 05:52 PM..
 
Old 09-25-2017, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,707 posts, read 79,541,763 times
Reputation: 39444
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post

BTW, teaching is a group endeavor. What works for one kid, may not work for the majority, and while we all want individual instruction for our kids, that isn't what public school is about. So at most you know what works best for YOUR 5 children. .
What works for 30 children 6 or 10 times in a row, is pretty obviously a good technique and very usable. Our 5 children were each in classes with 20 - 30 other kids. We could see what worked or the class. We could see where one fifth grade teachers class ended up way ahead of another and then we saw it repeated with other kids. We could see what the teacher was doing differently and why it worked better. What we could not do is say "here is what is working time and time again in another fifth grade class, what do you think?

We worked with and watched our 5 children and all or most of the other kids in the class, especially their friends who are over to study together and who we watch progress over the years. We studied with them for hours and for years. A teacher sees what is happening with a particular group of kids in one class (or maybe 5 classes, but (s)he is seeing only her approach. She or he is not seeing anyone else approach and how it is working for them. We saw what was happening in 15 or 20 classes each year (fewer in elementary school but still more than a single teacher experiencing only their methods). Yes. We get broader experience with differnt teaching styles and results than they do. We can see if/where they are failing and we can see with other teachers are doing differently that works better. It is not alchemy. There are no secrets. A teacher has a much more limited sampling on which to base experience than many parents have. In a few weeks I knew which of our kids have better teachers and which teachers need to improve. In a few months I know how the teachers need to improve to be as good as the better teachers. Sometimes we can see what the better teachers could borrow form another teacher to improve even more - but they will never learn that because they will not listen. .

Yes. You should be listening to every suggestion from every parent. It takes very little effort to listen. You should be considering what they say, especially if they are telling you something that worked extremely well for some other (especially if more experienced) teacher. Shutting that out in any profession is just dumb. I would fire anyone I found refusing to listen like that (Doctor, dentist, employee, mechanic, anyone), but you cannot fire teachers. (Well I once considered running for school board in part to fire a certain teacher, but ended up backing someone who agreed with me instead. Teacher ended up running off to Europe to be a roadie in her boyfriends band half way through the semester (with no notice), so she saved them the trouble. So I guess you can sort of fire a teacher, but it is a pretty extreme effort.)
 
Old 09-25-2017, 05:53 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
20,103 posts, read 16,074,864 times
Reputation: 28275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Yes. I do not suggest ways they can fix it better, but I will tell them what worked before if the child had a simlar broken arm and they we healed properly.

I always discuss options with any mechanic and they had better have answers. 99% of the time I can do the work myself but do not have time. In some areas, I have more experience than their techs who do the ork - so Yes. I have given mechanics tips on how to do things on a particular car that they came back amazed and said it saved them a ton of time. Many times, I know more about the car than the mechanic will. Again they must generalize, and they have little or no experience with that particular car, I may have 20 or more years experience with that particular year/model.

When I get a hair cut, I tell them I have really severe cowlicks in the back and exactly what they need to do to address them. Why? because I have decades of experience with cowlicks and while I could nto cut someones hair, I certainly know what works and what does not work.

We particularly told Doctors what we wanted them to consider and not consider in diagnosing one of our daughters. I tell them that all the time in my personal issues. Do not pursue XXX or do any testing. We have already ruled that out. There is no point in chasing a diagnosis that has already been ruled out. Further we (wifey) had studied our daughters particular condition far more intensely than any doctor we ever encountered. Why? Dr.s study everything. My wife studied one particular condition. Likewise, my sister knows more about Lymes disease than most of the doctors she encounters. Why? Because she has had the disease for over 20 years and spend most of her life studying it and searching for any possible treatment or cure. How many doctors have studied Lymes disease exclusively for 20 years? Do the doctors listen? Absolutely - or we go elsewhere.

I tell our company chef different techniques I have used or seen used in cooking or tweaks to recipes. He never says shut up you are not a chef. He listens, sometimes writes things down, comes back with them the next week or month. Lots of people give him ideas and he dies not dismiss them because they are not chefs. He learns and broadens his knowledge, he tries things and sees how they turn out, and becomes a better chef.

I have only ridden a public bus about four times and that was 33 years ago, but taxi drivers? Yes I have told them better or faster ways to get where I am going. Why, I have gone there hundreds of times. I may know a better way. The will give it a try and if it works out, say thank you - now I am a better taxi driver for this location.

Working with contractors on our house, I frequently shared methods, tools, tricks with them that I learned from watching other contractors and they adopted them and became better contractors. Sometimes they tried it and said they did not like the method, but they never said "Where is your license? How dare you give me ideas" Sometimes I have even discussed things I thought were done improperly, they argues and the looked it up or learned from the inspector I was right. Not always, but they did not just dismiss the concept and walk away. They learned something new and became better contractors as a result.

I teach people how to throw axes knives and atlatl. I and very proficient. However an 8 year old kid who was just learning, after I showed him the "right way" to throw knives said "I saw someone throwing them like this yesterday. I experimented with it and learned a cool new way to throw that I had never seen or heard of before.

In my profession do I listen to a client's proposed argument? Do I listen if they tell me something a previous lawyer did that worked? Absolutely. Clients often provide some remarkable insight or suggestions. Sometimes their ideas win the case and then i get to take credit for it. Sometimes even if I am uncertain of an idea or disagree with it, I still might give it a flier and see if it gets any traction. Sometimes I am surprised. I am not arrogant enough to think I know all there is to know about my profession. A young lawyer 1-5 years out of law schools would be an idiot to think they know anything at all. They need advice from every living being, but especially someone who has used services of 150 plus lawyers.

Likewise teachers are foolish to dismiss what parents have learned from other teachers, especially younger teachers, but any teacher. To think you know it all and cannot benefit from something different is the definition of stupid.

Teachers are the only profession where I have encountered this arrogance. I cannot think of anyone else who will not listen to suggestions, and even give it a try. For example, "We have learned that many kids learn better if material is presented in multiple ways not just audibly, but visually and tactically where possible. In classes where this was used, it worked gret and all the kids learned a lot. Have ou ever heard of this?

"Don't tell me how to teach, I went to college and have been teaching for three years."

So is there a single teacher out there who has worked with 150 teachers, watched their methods, seen what works and what does not work in their classrooms, talked with many of their students daily or at least monthly (not counting our own kids), watched them study, watched their progress in learning? If not, why would you not listen to someone who has?
I have, and most likely in a far more extensive manner than you possibly could have. We have at least two more regular posters on here that probably can make the same claim.
Quote:
For example, "We have learned that many kids learn better if material is presented in multiple ways not just audibly, but visually and tactically where possible. In classes where this was used, it worked gret and all the kids learned a lot. Have ou ever heard of this?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess this was not well received. Why are you not just flat out saying "My kid can't learn by just hearing things, it helps when he sees them or when possible can handle them" instead of way that probably came off as smug, superior, and implies the teacher is incompetent? You probably don't think that's what you're doing but unless you are one of those rare people that have a really warm and fuzzy personality that instantly puts people at ease, those words you gave as an example would sting - especially to a young or new teacher. An old battleax like me would just politely listen, tell you I'll take it into consideration for future lessons, and roll my eyes the minute you leave. I would try to do more visual and tactile things with your child because I would understand that is the real issue and the message I need to take away from the conversation, but I would still think you were a bit of a pompous PITA.
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Old 09-25-2017, 05:56 PM
 
6,292 posts, read 10,560,030 times
Reputation: 7505
I am willing to listen to parents and I am more than willing to try, within reason, suggestions if they are time permitting. You have to remember your child isn’t the only one in the room. Things may look different to you on the outside than the reality of what’s happening in the classroom. What’s a suggestion you made, in a non patronizing way, to a teacher that was shot down?
 
Old 09-25-2017, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Florida
7,195 posts, read 5,701,323 times
Reputation: 12337
All of the examples (auto mechanic, taxi driver, doctor, etc) are people who are working just for you when you are advising them. The taxi driver doesn't care which way he goes; if it takes longer, you'll pay the difference. The home contractor and the auto mechanic are working on your property. They'll do it your way. Again, if it takes longer, you'll pay for it. The doctor is a partner in your health and obviously needs to tailor your treatment to you.

But a teacher isn't only teaching YOUR kids. They're teaching a large group. What works for your individual child is, unfortunately, irrelevant. Teaching is a long-term thing. They can't alter their teaching style for a few hours or a week to see if Janie's mom's idea will work. You're not there during the course of the day, week, or year. Knowing that your 15-year-old had Mr. Jones for history doesn't mean that you are intimately acquainted with his teaching style.

Now, I have a friend who is married to a lawyer. And I have a friendly acquaintance who is a lawyer. Also, I've written advertising material for several lawyers. I've worked with two lawyers on actual cases. Am I qualified to give you advice on how to better represent your clients? Obviously not. If I sent you a list of suggestions to use on clients who are not me, wouldn't you think I was perhaps being a bit ridiculous?

That's how it is when you approach a teacher to tell him or her how to teach their class. It doesn't matter that Miss Jenkins did it that way for 4th grade math; Mr. Smith has a whole different group of kids with different abilities and different work that needs to be done and different standards to meet in 8th grade Social Studies.
 
Old 09-25-2017, 06:00 PM
 
6,292 posts, read 10,560,030 times
Reputation: 7505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
What works for 30 children 6 or 10 times in a row, is pretty obviously a good technique and very usable. Our 5 children were each in classes with 20 - 30 other kids. We could see what worked or the class. We could see where one fifth grade teachers class ended up way ahead of another and then we saw it repeated with other kids. We could see what the teacher was doing differently and why it worked better. What we could not do is say "here is what is working time and time again in another fifth grade class, what do you think?

We worked with and watched our 5 children and all or most of the other kids in the class, especially their friends who are over to study together and who we watch progress over the years. We studied with them for hours and for years. A teacher sees what is happening with a particular group of kids in one class (or maybe 5 classes, but (s)he is seeing only her approach. She or he is not seeing anyone else approach and how it is working for them. We saw what was happening in 15 or 20 classes each year (fewer in elementary school but still more than a single teacher experiencing only their methods). Yes. We get broader experience with differnt teaching styles and results than they do. We can see if/where they are failing and we can see with other teachers are doing differently that works better. It is not alchemy. There are no secrets. A teacher has a much more limited sampling on which to base experience than many parents have. In a few weeks I knew which of our kids have better teachers and which teachers need to improve. In a few months I know how the teachers need to improve to be as good as the better teachers. Sometimes we can see what the better teachers could borrow form another teacher to improve even more - but they will never learn that because they will not listen. .

Yes. You should be listening to every suggestion from every parent. It takes very little effort to listen. You should be considering what they say, especially if they are telling you something that worked extremely well for some other (especially if more experienced) teacher. Shutting that out in any profession is just dumb. I would fire anyone I found refusing to listen like that (Doctor, dentist, employee, mechanic, anyone), but you cannot fire teachers. (Well I once considered running for school board in part to fire a certain teacher, but ended up backing someone who agreed with me instead. Teacher ended up running off to Europe to be a roadie in her boyfriends band half way through the semester (with no notice), so she saved them the trouble. So I guess you can sort of fire a teacher, but it is a pretty extreme effort.)
You’d be incorrect if you think teachers don’t know how students in other room are progressing. We have meetings, weekly at most schools, where we track and compare data. Yes some classes will progress faster by the nature of the students in the class. You sound like you should have been in school administration in this post. You know how to run a room, but you don’t do it. Maybe you should become a teacher.
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