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Tenure does NOT mean professors can't be fired, there are lots of tenured professors that get fired, but usually because they are not politically correct, not because of poor performance in the classroom.
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This is BS. It's very rare that a professor would get fired for political reasons. Politics is irrelevant to the majority of courses and disciplines, anyway. Tenured professors get fired for sexual harassment or worse; assault, or other crimes. Non-tenured professors get fired for a variety of reasons: not meeting the requirements for tenure (not publishing a book during the first few years of being hired and making a bid for tenure), not showing up to class, and other egregious behavior.
I think y'all are making the assumption that whatever happens, is always the students fault. Which is not true. I've tried to make it clear I'm not talking about lack of studying or lack of trying. I'm talking things that only the professor and college can fix. And we all know that the college will support the professor regardless. Once they get tenure, they're untouchable regardless of how poor their performance. Had one when I went through that was so bad the entire class staged a walk out and went to the dean. You know the dean's answer? "Yes, we know how bad he is, but he has tenure so there's nothing we can do about it."
If you paid $40K for a car that turned out to be a lemon, would you say "well, life's not fair, guess I'll have to accept it" or would you be raising holy heck over it? That's my point for this -- we let colleges off the hook on too many things because "students need to deal with it" or "they need to learn life's not fair" or similar platitudes that do nothing to fix the underlying problem. Poor performance isn't acceptable in other walks of life -- why is it acceptable in education?
I know perfectly well what you are talking about, but the problem is bolded.
Had similar problem when my kid was in college. He was in tech field, but his English Writing class ( or whatever) teacher was a plain nuisance. What mattered to HER was the "headers and liners" - the particular format she insisted the home works should be done. And if it was not done the perfect way she wanted, she was greatly downgrading otherwise good essay. Things like that. He was wasting his valuable time on nonsense like that, instead of paying more attention to tech. classes that REALLY mattered.
At the end, he had to retake that class.
I HAD to complain to the dean about all this nonsence, but you can imagine how it ended.
Luckily enough, he had a different teacher next semester, so he passed that English class with no problem.
I know perfectly well what you are talking about, but the problem is bolded.
Had similar problem when my kid was in college. He was in tech field, but his English Writing class ( or whatever) teacher was a plain nuisance. What mattered to HER was the "headers and liners" - the particular format she insisted the home works should be done. And if it was not done the perfect way she wanted, she was greatly downgrading otherwise good essay. Things like that. He was wasting his valuable time on nonsense like that, instead of paying more attention to tech. classes that REALLY mattered.
At the end, he had to retake that class.
I HAD to complain to the dean about all this nonsence, but you can imagine how it ended.
Luckily enough, he had a different teacher next semester, so he passed that English class with no problem.
yes, that is a good lesson you taught him, especially in a tech field. Essentially, you taught him that prescribed methods and manners don't matter, and are essentially "nonsense".
I know perfectly well what you are talking about, but the problem is bolded.
Had similar problem when my kid was in college. He was in tech field, but his English Writing class ( or whatever) teacher was a plain nuisance. What mattered to HER was the "headers and liners" - the particular format she insisted the home works should be done. And if it was not done the perfect way she wanted, she was greatly downgrading otherwise good essay. Things like that. He was wasting his valuable time on nonsense like that, instead of paying more attention to tech. classes that REALLY mattered.
At the end, he had to retake that class.
I HAD to complain to the dean about all this nonsence, but you can imagine how it ended.
Luckily enough, he had a different teacher next semester, so he passed that English class with no problem.
Sounds like he was being taught how to organize his thoughts in written form in the "English Writing class (or whatever)", and he couldn't be bothered with the details.
I worked in a big computer center for twenty years and not being able to read a report by a techie because they haven't the first idea how to lay things out in a document is a PIA.
And you actually went and complained to the college like your babykins was in high school. Poor wretch, the kids is lost.
I know perfectly well what you are talking about, but the problem is bolded.
Had similar problem when my kid was in college. He was in tech field, but his English Writing class ( or whatever) teacher was a plain nuisance. What mattered to HER was the "headers and liners" - the particular format she insisted the home works should be done. And if it was not done the perfect way she wanted, she was greatly downgrading otherwise good essay. Things like that. He was wasting his valuable time on nonsense like that, instead of paying more attention to tech. classes that REALLY mattered.
At the end, he had to retake that class.
I HAD to complain to the dean about all this nonsence, but you can imagine how it ended.
Luckily enough, he had a different teacher next semester, so he passed that English class with no problem.
You didn't have to complain to the dean to fix the problem, your son just needed to follow the English teacher's format. It is perfectly reasonable for an English teacher to require written material to be in a specific format, many employers have the same expectations. What you should have done is say, "Son, why do you keep turning in work that doesn't follow her format when you know it will get you a failing grade?" to your kid and make it clear that while you feel bad he is struggling the issue is he needs to rethink his choices. It wasn't a "good" essay, no matter what the words were, if it wasn't in the correct format.
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When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.
This kind of came up in another thread, but really didn't get discussed there. But does pose an interesting issue/dilemma. Given the cost of college today, what is the line between helicoptering and legitimate intervention at the college level?
As anyone who has been through college knows, some professors are simply incompetent or complete and total dirtbags. I'm not talking about professors who are tough and challenging, but those where no learning takes place. Or worse grading is arbitrary and capricious with no relation to the work performed. So you can stick the class out and hope you pass or drop it and spend another semester/summer retaking the class, hopefully with a decent professor.
On the one side of the argument, college students are adults and should fight their own battles, and that they have to learn that sometimes life isn't fair and to deal with it. And that is a good argument.
On the other side however, college has become almost prohibitively expensive. If no learning is taking place, that money is wasted and sets the student up for problems in follow on classes. If dropping adds an extra semester, that's a big cost. And of course the college has no problem encouraging kids to drop classes and add a semester or year = more money.
And that sets the stage for the dilemma: As a parent you want your kids to deal with their own issues. But also as a parent (and taxpayer in the case of public colleges) you don't want to waste thousands/tens of thousands due to professor Dinghead.
If your child is not mature enough to manage dealing with professors than they are not mature enough to be at college. Maybe they should go to community college.
I think y'all are making the assumption that whatever happens, is always the students fault. Which is not true. I've tried to make it clear I'm not talking about lack of studying or lack of trying. I'm talking things that only the professor and college can fix. And we all know that the college will support the professor regardless. Once they get tenure, they're untouchable regardless of how poor their performance. Had one when I went through that was so bad the entire class staged a walk out and went to the dean. You know the dean's answer? "Yes, we know how bad he is, but he has tenure so there's nothing we can do about it."
If you paid $40K for a car that turned out to be a lemon, would you say "well, life's not fair, guess I'll have to accept it" or would you be raising holy heck over it? That's my point for this -- we let colleges off the hook on too many things because "students need to deal with it" or "they need to learn life's not fair" or similar platitudes that do nothing to fix the underlying problem. Poor performance isn't acceptable in other walks of life -- why is it acceptable in education?
Not for nothing but how long ago were you in college? When the dean told you that? Twenty? Thirty years ago? I am always amazed how many people think educational policy is frozen in time. It should go without saying but things are different today. Those anonymous end of semester surveys can make or break a teacher, regardless of tenure. Tenure itself is harder and harder to get. Deans and other administrators routinely force professors to change grades, etc.
You are accepting the changes related to the increase in cost of college since you were there and completely ignoring the changes related to professors and the power of students.
I paid for several educations for my daughter. I supported her choices, and the last one took hold. I knew this was going to happen, although her last choice at first struck me as being unorthodox for her.
So, now that even public college tuition is exorbitant, this opens the door to hordes of parents addressing department chairmen and deans, wanting to micro-manage the college? What a nightmare!
I get it, OP; you have a huge economic stake in this venture. But I think what you're contemplating does cross the line. I think it screams "Helicopter parent alert!" I don't know how long the semester has been going now, at your child's school (some schools start fall semester/trimester in late Sept.), but depending on how long classes have been in session, the student may be able to transfer to a different section of the course, or drop it and jump into a new course; a little late, but could be still doable. Does this college have a summer semester? That could be another option, for "catching up" on credits; student could work through the summer, and take one class on the side.
I don't think there is such a thing as "legitimate intervention at the college level", unless the student has been involved in a crime, or something equally as extreme.
No you don't get it. Everyone seems to be reading this completely different than what I said. I didn't say any of these things. Mine's a senior, been an RA since her freshman year, a member of several student boards, and about to graduate. We never intervened on anything. Basically everything you said above is made up conjecture on your part. And a complete distraction from the topic at hand.
I'm trying to have a discussion on cost vs performance and responsibility at the college level. Why is everyone so eager to give professors a pass on performance?
No, from the get-go, you've been transparently trying to pipe in a ridiculous sham of victim-playing right-wing anti-intellectual propaganda. I'm finding it all rather sickening myself.
"As anyone who has been through college knows, some professors are simply incompetent or complete and total dirtbags."
No, we don't all know that. The vast majority of us does however know BETTER than that.
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