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I have to agree with Sheena and Warren Zee. I mentioned that this is a very regional phenomena and I have asked the OP several times where does she live to have this perspective.
While there are definitely pockets or islands throughout the interior of the US where academic ability is recognized, the scholar is more glamorized in the northeast, coastal CA, Coastal northwest, etc. The "islands" are generally affluent communities, often where there is a large university that employs many of the residents. However, in the densely populated northeast or places like SF, no one gives a crap about high school football, except the parents. Here, it's not so much affluence, but rather culture. Immigrants through 3rd generation from Asian countries, Eastern Europe, Africa, many Caribbean Island nations, some with money, some without, will push their children to excell in school. They are proud of their children when they get academic awards and scholarships, but they also stress that "failure is not an option." Poor Korean, Chinese, Russian, Uzbekistan parents will scrimp in order to get their children tutoring for the SAT or ACT and if there's anything leftover, piano lessons, dance lessons, or chess lessons. These people come from parts of the world where education was a privilege and getting one was a hardship. They passed this attitude down to their children and grandchildren. This why colleges used to have unconcealed quotas for Jews and in a more modern way, have imposed quotas on Asian kids.
In other parts of the US, it's more "American" where the football and basketball stars are the heroes. The local facebook groups or papers give the scores of the games and write about the athletes. If you win some state championship, the team rides on a float in the Memorial Day Parade. In the NYC/NJ area, no one cares or knows who won the X,Y,Z tournament, except for parents and friends of team members. As Sheena mentioned, where I live, Lacrosse is more popular than football. Tell that to anyone in Nebraska and their reaction is WTH is Lacrosse?
I often wonder if the teachers stop to consider the age differences in the classroom. Even a one year age difference can be significant. Many parents start their kids late these days or hold them back a year, so a kid who is 6 in first grade might seem "slow" to a teacher when that kid is learning alongside 7 year olds and 7 1/2 year olds. So although it may seem unfair that a kid is getting "bulk of the attention" try to consider that the parents of the "faster" kids possibly sought to give their child a slightly unfair advantage by starting them later in school.
In the United States we overwhelmingly group students by age, and what you're describing isn't all that common, so this is a bit of a red herring. Regardless, it sounds like you're trying to justify denying educational equity to some students in favor of providing more support to others, which simply is not right. For whatever the reason that students may be more or less ready for a topic or a class, all students have the right to be pushed to reach their potential.
However if you're arguing that age-based grouping is outdated, I'd agree, and I think we'd be better off grouping students within age bands and more so based on the learning they're ready for and capable of doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla
Also, some parents can afford tutoring programs that others cannot. Which gives their child an edge in the classroom over others. So that kid who the teacher thinks is "slow" may seem that way because he's surrounded by kids who get tutoring help, which his own parents cannot afford. People need to check their privilege.
Schools should and most do offer free tutoring for those that need extra help. Many teachers also do it on their own.
In the United States we overwhelmingly group students by age, and what you're describing isn't all that common, so this is a bit of a red herring. .
It's very common. Lots of classrooms have students with gaps of age by one year or more. Redshirting is more common these days. Holding kids back a year is more common. Many parents will hold boys back simply so they have an advantage in sports. Therefore we have age gaps in the classroom. Teachers should understand that a 6 year old may not grasp certain things as quickly as a 7 year old will. In many ways, it's unfair for a 6 year olds to be in classrooms with 7 year olds. There were 19 and 20 year old seniors in my h.s. graduating class. Many others were 18. I was one of a few who was 17 when I graduated. Nobody's going to tell me that students are grouped by age or that it's not common to have much older kids in a classroom. Good grief.
It's very common. Lots of classrooms have students with gaps of age by one year or more. Redshirting is more common these days. Holding kids back a year is more common. Many parents will hold boys back simply so they have an advantage in sports. Therefore we have age gaps in the classroom. Teachers should understand that a 6 year old may not grasp certain things as quickly as a 7 year old will. In many ways, it's unfair for a 6 year olds to be in classrooms with 7 year olds. There were 19 and 20 year old seniors in my h.s. graduating class. Many others were 18. I was one of a few who was 17 when I graduated. Nobody's going to tell me that students are grouped by age or that it's not common to have much older kids in a classroom. Good grief.
While I did *redshirt* my son, it was because he was socially inept. His academics were always ahead of the pack.
Also note that in his high school, it was always the younger kids who did best academically not the older ones. Our honors classes were filled with the accelerated younger kids, not those who were redshirted or those who started school later. The 10th graders in geometry complained about the 8th and 9th graders who took that class because they always did better on the common final exam.
I have to agree with Sheena and Warren Zee. I mentioned that this is a very regional phenomena and I have asked the OP several times where does she live to have this perspective.
..?
I thought I'd answered this but maybe in a different thread. They start to run together. I am currently in Tennessee, but demographics of the town I'm in are atypical for the region because of the presence of a large government lab. I think I mentioned somewhere that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a PhD around here. But you don't have to far to be in banjo country. So the diversity is wide enough to be bimodal.
Because of a military career I have lived in multiple states, across the country, including both coasts and flyover country. I've seen the diversity of how schools operate in different regions. Heck when I was in Colorado, I saw huge differences between districts such as D11, Air Academy D20, Falcon D49, and rural districts. Therefore my view points are an amalgam of around the country, not just a view of a single district or region.
It's very common. Lots of classrooms have students with gaps of age by one year or more. Redshirting is more common these days. Holding kids back a year is more common. Many parents will hold boys back simply so they have an advantage in sports. Therefore we have age gaps in the classroom. Teachers should understand that a 6 year old may not grasp certain things as quickly as a 7 year old will. In many ways, it's unfair for a 6 year olds to be in classrooms with 7 year olds. There were 19 and 20 year old seniors in my h.s. graduating class. Many others were 18. I was one of a few who was 17 when I graduated. Nobody's going to tell me that students are grouped by age or that it's not common to have much older kids in a classroom. Good grief.
Actually holding kids back for academic reasons is less common today than in previous decades. In terms of kids redshirting for sports, sure it happens but certainly not frequently enough to be relevant to the discussion, though this probably varies in frequency from one region to the next. And in regards to your final statement above, let's take a step back to reality here: The entire American grade system is based on student age. Of course there are variations from this, but those simply are not the norm. Walk in to a 6th grade classroom in any public school in the United States a month from now and the vast majority of students in that room will be 11 years old.
But again, all of this discussion is a red herring distracting from the real crux of the discussion. Every student has a right to an education that challenges them and helps them reach their potential. Even if they are more academically advanced than some or all of their peers in a particular classroom, grade level, or school, no matter what the reason may be for them being advanced. And the comment you made yesterday, which I'll re-quote below, is inaccurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla
If your kid is so great as you say he is, then being in class with slower kids isn't going to hold him back.
I'm all for taking kids in each developmental grade bands and placing them in classrooms based on ability, particularly for math and language arts. This could help cut down on in-classroom ability gaps and allow more students to learn at an appropriate pace as well as receive adequate instruction from educators. This grouping strategy would be particularly beneficial in smaller schools.
Actually holding kids back for academic reasons is less common today than in previous decades. In terms of kids redshirting for sports, sure it happens but certainly not frequently enough to be relevant to the discussion, though this probably varies in frequency from one region to the next. And in regards to your final statement above, let's take a step back to reality here: The entire American grade system is based on student age. Of course there are variations from this, but those simply are not the norm. Walk in to a 6th grade classroom in any public school in the United States a month from now and the vast majority of students in that room will be 11 years old.
But again, all of this discussion is a red herring distracting from the real crux of the discussion. Every student has a right to an education that challenges them and helps them reach their potential. Even if they are more academically advanced than some or all of their peers in a particular classroom, grade level, or school, no matter what the reason may be for them being advanced. And the comment you made yesterday, which I'll re-quote below, is inaccurate.
I'm all for taking kids in each developmental grade bands and placing them in classrooms based on ability, particularly for math and language arts. This could help cut down on in-classroom ability gaps and allow more students to learn at an appropriate pace as well as receive adequate instruction from educators. This grouping strategy would be particularly beneficial in smaller schools.
We've discussed "redshirting" on this forum ad nauseum. According to this article, between 3.5 and 5.5% of children are redshirted for K. Especially at the higher end, that's a lot of kids. Some have posted of much larger numbers than that in their own kids' classrooms. I suggest you do a search. https://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...try-for-a-year
In smaller schools, there would be far fewer students to "track". I think it would be more difficult to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coney
I have to agree with Sheena and Warren Zee. I mentioned that this is a very regional phenomena and I have asked the OP several times where does she live to have this perspective.
While there are definitely pockets or islands throughout the interior of the US where academic ability is recognized, the scholar is more glamorized in the northeast, coastal CA, Coastal northwest, etc. The "islands" are generally affluent communities, often where there is a large university that employs many of the residents. However, in the densely populated northeast or places like SF, no one gives a crap about high school football, except the parents. Here, it's not so much affluence, but rather culture. Immigrants through 3rd generation from Asian countries, Eastern Europe, Africa, many Caribbean Island nations, some with money, some without, will push their children to excell in school. They are proud of their children when they get academic awards and scholarships, but they also stress that "failure is not an option." Poor Korean, Chinese, Russian, Uzbekistan parents will scrimp in order to get their children tutoring for the SAT or ACT and if there's anything leftover, piano lessons, dance lessons, or chess lessons. These people come from parts of the world where education was a privilege and getting one was a hardship. They passed this attitude down to their children and grandchildren. This why colleges used to have unconcealed quotas for Jews and in a more modern way, have imposed quotas on Asian kids.
In other parts of the US, it's more "American" where the football and basketball stars are the heroes. The local facebook groups or papers give the scores of the games and write about the athletes. If you win some state championship, the team rides on a float in the Memorial Day Parade. In the NYC/NJ area, no one cares or knows who won the X,Y,Z tournament, except for parents and friends of team members. As Sheena mentioned, where I live, Lacrosse is more popular than football. Tell that to anyone in Nebraska and their reaction is WTH is Lacrosse?
I feel the need to point out those two are married to each other! My response is below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
I'm not clear on what you think is the exception to the rule. My kids' HS is (2014) 80% Non-Hispanic Caucasian. WRT religion, I couldn't find a Jewish population number for my town, but for Denver, the nearest big city, it's 0.6%. Asian population at the school is 4.7%. Nevertheless, it is a very competitive school academically.
The only parade I've seen the local HS football team riding a float in is the Homecoming parade. Our big civic parade is Labor Day, and it features some of the local rec center teams like the swim team.
Contrary to what you obviously believe, there are HS LaCrosse teams in Nebraska. Nebraska High School Lacrosse - MaxPreps
Ames, Ankenny and Valley are in Iowa! Maybe they play in the Nebraska League, who knows?
Arapahoe is in way south-central Nebraska, just the kind of place you are trash-talking. Mullen, NE is in northwest Nebraska, ditto. Northwest is in Grand Island, in the central part of the state; X 3! Winnebago is a town of 774 in northeast NE; it's 92% Native American. Didn't they invent Lacrosse? The rest of the teams are in Lincoln, Omaha and its suburbs.
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
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lots of people watched the WorldCup this morning, 8am PDT. The local english pub wouldn't let me in because they had reached capacity. I had to go to the Irish Whiskey house to watch the match, where it took literally 60 minutes to get served 2-eggs, bacon & sausage, tots, and toast. Too bad for Croatia they started out fast but faded faster.
We've discussed "redshirting" on this forum ad nauseum. According to this article, between 3.5 and 5.5% of children are redshirted for K. Especially at the higher end, that's a lot of kids. Some have posted of much larger numbers than that in their own kids' classrooms. I suggest you do a search.
No need for me to do a search, I was looking for someone to source the claim and your information is perfectly adequate. And based on that, we're speaking of roughly one student out of a class of 20? That's fairly insignificant especially when considering factors that could/should be shaping how a teacher decides to instruct a classroom. But again, I would argue that if you have a 12 year-old 6th grader in a class full of 11 year-old 6th graders, and the 12 year-old is capable of doing 7th grade content, he/she and all other 6th graders who are at that ability level should probably be a in class where 7th grade content is the focus. Particularly if we're talking about math or language arts as the subject.
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