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No need for me to do a search, I was looking for someone to source the claim and your information is perfectly adequate. And based on that, we're speaking of roughly one student out of a class of 20? That's fairly insignificant especially when considering factors that could/should be shaping how a teacher decides to instruct a classroom. But again, I would argue that if you have a 12 year-old 6th grader in a class full of 11 year-old 6th graders, and the 12 year-old is capable of doing 7th grade content, he/she and all other 6th graders who are at that ability level should probably be a in class where 7th grade content is the focus. Particularly if we're talking about math or language arts as the subject.
Since you won't do a search, for the sake of educating you on the extent of this problem, here's a thread: //www.city-data.com/forum/educa...hooling-2.html
Since the thread is closed, I can't multiquote from it, but I'd suggest looking at post #79 ff.
And many more. If you read through a few of these, you'll find it's not an average of 1 student out of 20. In some classrooms, 1/4 or more of the kids have been redshirted.
We've discussed "redshirting" on this forum ad nauseum. According to this article, between 3.5 and 5.5% of children are redshirted for K. Especially at the higher end, that's a lot of kids. Some have posted of much larger numbers than that in their own kids' classrooms. I suggest you do a search. https://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...try-for-a-year
In smaller schools, there would be far fewer students to "track". I think it would be more difficult to do so.
I feel the need to point out those two are married to each other! My response is below:
The only parade I've seen the local HS football team riding a float in is the Homecoming parade. Our big civic parade is Labor Day, and it features some of the local rec center teams like the swim team.
Contrary to what you obviously believe, there are HS LaCrosse teams in Nebraska. Nebraska High School Lacrosse - MaxPreps
Ames, Ankenny and Valley are in Iowa! Maybe they play in the Nebraska League, who knows?
Arapahoe is in way south-central Nebraska, just the kind of place you are trash-talking. Mullen, NE is in northwest Nebraska, ditto. Northwest is in Grand Island, in the central part of the state; X 3! Winnebago is a town of 774 in northeast NE; it's 92% Native American. Didn't they invent Lacrosse? The rest of the teams are in Lincoln, Omaha and its suburbs.
I understood that and I mentioned that there are spots where academics do take priority over sports. Usually these are affluent areas or areas where there are educated people due to a specific industry or a large university. I get that. There are some exceptional magnet schools throughout the country. However, my point is that certain regions of the US, the culture is very different, not based on educational levels of the parents or their income, but rather on culture where sport participation is minimized and academics are stressed. Since the population is extremely dense in the northeast and the coastal west, this involves a lot of people. The OP wanted to know why in this country, more recognition is given to athletes than scholars and I am merely pointing out that is not something that is universal in the US.
I meant no disrespect to the residents of Nebraska, who I am sure also have produced a number of exceptional students in academics. However, there are towns where high school football is hugely popular, maybe more so than academics, and this is something very alien to north easterners. I only brought up the example of lacrosse unlike the rest of the country, it's more popular here than high school football or high school basketball. However, sports and athletics in general, including lacrosse, are not that big of a deal. The only people who seem to follow high school sports are the parents of the players. And not all high schools have football or any sports teams at all. Academics are definitely more stressed and academic stars get much more recognition locally than students who excel in sports, which is what the OP was postulating in the first place. That is a regional attribute. It's not universal to the US.
I thought I'd answered this but maybe in a different thread. They start to run together. I am currently in Tennessee, but demographics of the town I'm in are atypical for the region because of the presence of a large government lab. I think I mentioned somewhere that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a PhD around here. But you don't have to far to be in banjo country. So the diversity is wide enough to be bimodal.
Because of a military career I have lived in multiple states, across the country, including both coasts and flyover country. I've seen the diversity of how schools operate in different regions. Heck when I was in Colorado, I saw huge differences between districts such as D11, Air Academy D20, Falcon D49, and rural districts. Therefore my view points are an amalgam of around the country, not just a view of a single district or region.
I understand. I know the lab. I know Tennessee fairly well. Big sports culture, yet many places that have high academic standards in the schools. Seems like most of the places where academics are important, the parents themselves are educated and affluent, such as in Franklin. But sports are important there too and it would not be a popular decision to cut them during a budget crisis. Here, sports are the first to go and the programs are much, much smaller in comparison because they just aren't as important here as they are in TN. Academics are important. It's the most competitive region for selective college admissions, according to the admissions counselors that I have spoken with. The winners of the academic competitions are the stars, much more than athletes. Again, because of certain immigrant cultures, the students who excel in the academic subjects and attend the special schools are not necessarily from educated families or families with money. That's the big difference.
I understood that and I mentioned that there are spots where academics do take priority over sports. Usually these are affluent areas or areas where there are educated people due to a specific industry or a large university. I get that. There are some exceptional magnet schools throughout the country. However, my point is that certain regions of the US, the culture is very different, not based on educational levels of the parents or their income, but rather on culture where sport participation is minimized and academics are stressed. Since the population is extremely dense in the northeast and the coastal west, this involves a lot of people. The OP wanted to know why in this country, more recognition is given to athletes than scholars and I am merely pointing out that is not something that is universal in the US.
I meant no disrespect to the residents of Nebraska, who I am sure also have produced a number of exceptional students in academics. However, there are towns where high school football is hugely popular, maybe more so than academics, and this is something very alien to north easterners. I only brought up the example of lacrosse unlike the rest of the country, it's more popular here than high school football or high school basketball. However, sports and athletics in general, including lacrosse, are not that big of a deal. The only people who seem to follow high school sports are the parents of the players. And not all high schools have football or any sports teams at all. Academics are definitely more stressed and academic stars get much more recognition locally than students who excel in sports, which is what the OP was postulating in the first place. That is a regional attribute. It's not universal to the US.
I'd like to know how you know that? You seem to live in the northeast, and you know something about Tennessee. You obviously do not know much about Nebraska, and your condescending remarks about how "you're sure" they've produced a number of exceptional students in academics didn't help. Here is a list of "famous Nebraskans" with links to websites. Famous Nebraskans - NebraskAccess You do know that Warren Buffet is from there, no? You also know that Nebraska, not some northeastern state, has the highest high school graduation rate in the country, yes? While the state with the highest rate changes from time to time, Nebraska has always been a contender. https://www.usnews.com/high-schools/...rates-by-state
It's hard to find a lot of HS football data. I like this link because it covers all the states. You'll note for high school, Texas is #1 (per ESPN's metrics) and California, on the sophisticated west coast #2, then Florida #3. California, Texas and Florida are also #1, #2 and #3 in population, in that order. Big surprise, that! While many schools including tiny ones here in Colorado play football (some 8 man teams here and I believe they just dropped six man recently) having a large student body is very helpful in football, which requires a lot of players. Note Pennsylvania, a northeastern state, is #6 in HS football, and New Jersey, also NE, is #13. Tennessee is #18, while #16 in population. Maybe HS football isn't so big there after all? Overall state football rankings
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 07-16-2018 at 09:26 AM..
To some extent I think the redshirting thing is overstated when it comes to gifted students. I think it definitely plays a role in the "smart and hard working kid who gets good grades" dynamic, where an extra year of maturity can make a big different in work skills and study habits and perhaps an earlier recognition of the necessity to work hard to get good grades in order to be successful on a chosen career path.
But when you cross over into true giftedness, that really small percent at the top, I think age is less relevant. I did not redshirt my son, so he is one of the younger kids in the class. That has never stopped him from getting the highest scores in the school on math tests and standardized math exams, at a STEM charter school.
I'd like to know how you know that? You seem to live in the northeast, and you know something about Tennessee. You obviously do not know much about Nebraska, and your condescending remarks about how "you're sure" they've produced a number of exceptional students in academics didn't help. Here is a list of "famous Nebraskans" with links to websites. Famous Nebraskans - NebraskAccess You do know that Warren Buffet is from there, no? You also know that Nebraska, not some northeastern state, has the highest graduation rate in the country, yes? While the state with the highest rate changes from time to time, Nebraska has always been a contender. https://www.usnews.com/high-schools/...rates-by-state
It's hard to find a lot of HS football data. I like this link because it covers all the states. You'll note for high school, Texas is #1 (per ESPN's metrics) and California, on the sophisticated west coast #2, then Florida #3. California, Texas and Florida are also #1, #2 and #3 in population, in that order. Big surprise, that! While many schools including tiny ones here in Colorado play football (some 8 man teams here and I believe they just dropped six man recently) having a large student body is very helpful in football, which requires a lot of players. Note Pennsylvania, a northeastern state, is #6 in HS football, and New Jersey, also NE, is #13. Tennessee is #18, while #16 in population. Maybe HS football isn't so big there after all? Overall state football rankings
Again, I apologize. I didn't mean to insult anything about Nebraska. I have never been there. My point wasn't about whether football is popular or not. I don't know how we got into football. I could have used basketball as an example instead. I could have said Arkansas or North Carolina or Idaho. It doesn't matter. I was merely addressing the original post about why student athletes get more recognition/acclaim than students who get good grades and do well academically in the United States of America. I don't want to go off on a tangent about Nebraska or football or lacrosse. I just used those things as examples, which somehow got misinterpreted. I know about the northeast because I live here. Warren Zee and Sheena 12 all wrote posts validating my observation that giving MORE recognition to student athletes than kids who excel at academics does not apply to every part of the US. Again for the 12th time, based on my observations in the northeast and coastal parts of CA, WA, OR, superstar student scholars get more fame and glory than superstar student athletes. Of course there are exceptions, but this is a generalization about what commonly happens in specific regions of the US. I have visited many school districts in different parts of the US. Different parts of the country support different lifestyles in so many aspects of life, including our values when it comes to education. We are a heterogeneous nation with people from diverse backgrounds, which contribute to unique and diverse perspectives.
Please go back and read post #175. Sheena 12 and Warren Zee are much more articulate than me and are better writers. Their posts explained my position that was written on a post on page 2 or 3 of this thread. I don't share your combative personality nor the enjoyment of arguing with other posters.
Again, I apologize. I didn't mean to insult anything about Nebraska. I have never been there. My point wasn't about whether football is popular or not. I don't know how we got into football. I could have used basketball as an example instead. I could have said Arkansas or North Carolina or Idaho. It doesn't matter. I was merely addressing the original post about why student athletes get more recognition/acclaim than students who get good grades and do well academically in the United States of America. I don't want to go off on a tangent about Nebraska or football or lacrosse. I just used those things as examples, which somehow got misinterpreted. I know about the northeast because I live here. Warren Zee and Sheena 12 all wrote posts validating my observation that giving MORE recognition to student athletes than kids who excel at academics does not apply to every part of the US. Again for the 12th time, based on my observations in the northeast and coastalparts of CA, WA, OR, superstar student scholars get more fame and glory than superstar student athletes. Of course there are exceptions, but this is a generalization. I have visited many school districts in different parts of the US. Different parts of the country support different lifestyles.
OK, you're being nice so I will be too. It comes as no surprise to me that you've never been to Nebraska. And Sheena is my CD friend, but friends can disagree.
I disagree it's only those areas of the country in bold that validate the scholars more than the athletes. I gave an example from my own kids' high school in suburban Denver, a white bread h*ll hole in the opinion of some. And Oregon and Washington? Have you ever been there? Oregon has the second lowest HS graduation rate in the country, and Washington is third. They sometimes have to close the schools early in Portland because they've run out of money. They don't do that in Denver. Re: your emphasis on the coastal areas of the west, that is where most people in those states live. Yet CA is still #2 for HS football. The states with HS graduation rates of 90+% are Nebraska, followed by Kentucky (yes, Kentucky), Iowa and Missouri (tied), Massachusetts (finally a NE state), TEXAS (#1 for football), Virginia and West Virginia. If I missed any, I'm sure someone will let me know. It's hard to do with this map; I wish they'd made a list.
Our lifestyles are all more the same than different.
Since you won't do a search, for the sake of educating you on the extent of this problem, here's a thread:
And many more. If you read through a few of these, you'll find it's not an average of 1 student out of 20. In some classrooms, 1/4 or more of the kids have been redshirted.
I just don't have time to pore over half a dozen threads that I suspect are full of anecdotes. I'm just looking for some hard data from well-sourced research on the issue. Based on my extensive experience in education (which itself provides me with my own anecdotes to share ), I just haven't seen it to be common for any given classroom to consist of 25% of students who have been redshirted. The 3.5-5.5% statistic of kindergarten students being redshirted seems reasonable (since kindergarten is the point of entry into education and can vary dramatically), and combined with the rarity of later redshirting, although one in 20 may be low, five in 20 would be high.
To some extent I think the redshirting thing is overstated when it comes to gifted students.
It certainly is, but again I need to point out that it was only brought up as a way to justify shortchanging those students out of educational opportunities in "inclusive" classrooms.
I just don't have time to pore over half a dozen threads that I suspect are full of anecdotes. I'm just looking for some hard data from well-sourced research on the issue. Based on my extensive experience in education (which itself provides me with anecdotes to share, ), I just haven't seen it to be common for any given classroom to consist of up to 25% of students who have been redshirted. The 3.5-5.5% statistic of kindergarten students being redshirted seems reasonable (since kindergarten is the point of entry into education and can vary dramatically), and combined with the rarity of later redshirting, although one in 20 may be low, five in 20 would be high.
While the redshirting may be 3.5-5.5% total, it is not even dispersed. Redshirting (and you can find this in any link on the subject) is far more prominent in affluent kids with college educated parents, so it's classrooms of kids with those demographics who may have large numbers of red-shirts. It's also more commonly done to males, so maybe 25% is high. I'll revise that to about 15-20%. Poor parents do not typically redshirt, because they can't easily afford another year of preschool/day care.
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), I just haven't seen it to be common for any given classroom to consist of 25% of students who have been redshirted. The 3.5-5.5% statistic of kindergarten students being redshirted seems reasonable (since kindergarten is the point of entry into education and can vary dramatically), and combined with the rarity of later redshirting, although one in 20 may be low, five in 20 would be high.
