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1. Let's take school boards. Please give me some examples of where people who had different views than the educational mainstream were prohibited from running in a school board election. I know in school systems where I worked, some pretty wacko people who were far outside the education mainstream got elected. There were many times when school boards I worked for made decisions that were very much the opposite of what teachers and other professional educators wanted and/or recommended.
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Ever seen small town politics? There are positions on the school board that are basically inherited. There have been certain families on the board going back decades. You're assuming we haven't run outsiders for the school board. And we've been slowly breaking those cliques in our local board. It takes time because only a portion is up for election each cycle. It's like turning the Titanic.
That's just our local school district. When I talk to coworkers in other school districts, I hear the same thing about their districts.
I find it interesting when you say the boards made decisions the opposite of what the educators wanted. Ours was the other way around. The clique that ran our board rubber stamped whatever the superintendent wanted. It has taken 12 years to break that clique.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
2. Let's take public committees that are formed of educational professionals and members of the public to judge what library books should be banned from public schools. I've served on more than one where the public part of the committee won those decisions over the objection of the educational professions. Same for a textbook adoption committee I served on.
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Those "public" committees are chosen from the cliques and political inner circle. Very difficult to get anyone outside that circle on any committee. Our local boards (not just school) have been caught numerous times skirting the edge of the Sunshine Law in our state. A common tactic is to post notice of a controversial topic late and schedule the meeting while the public is working.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
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3. Which post number said this: "you're not an educator so you don't have a right to say anything". Please be specific.
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Just look within this thread. 253, 254, and 269 are just a few. Then many other threads. Perhaps you want to quibble over exact words, but the message has been received loud and clear.
Ever seen small town politics? There are positions on the school board that are basically inherited. There have been certain families on the board going back decades. You're assuming we haven't run outsiders for the school board. And we've been slowly breaking those cliques in our local board. It takes time because only a portion is up for election each cycle. It's like turning the Titanic.
That's just our local school district. When I talk to coworkers in other school districts, I hear the same thing about their districts.
I find it interesting when you say the boards made decisions the opposite of what the educators wanted. Ours was the other way around. The clique that ran our board rubber stamped whatever the superintendent wanted. It has taken 12 years to break that clique.
Those "public" committees are chosen from the cliques and political inner circle. Very difficult to get anyone outside that circle on any committee. Our local boards (not just school) have been caught numerous times skirting the edge of the Sunshine Law in our state. A common tactic is to post notice of a controversial topic late and schedule the meeting while the public is working.
Just look within this thread. 253, 254, and 269 are just a few. Then many other threads. Perhaps you want to quibble over exact words, but the message has been received loud and clear.
You just don't like it when the decision doesn't go with your viewpoint.
Are you telling me that elections to the school board in your district are falsified? I doubt that very much.
But hey...moan and groan all you like. Just remember, there are private schools and home schooling if you don't like the public school system.
Knowing about great literature is part of knowing our world and out country...a nation is often reflected in its literature. I can't speak for all schools, but in my junior high and high school, for every required book we read, we could also read one book of our choice. And the required books were as diverse as "The Canterbury Tales" and "The Autobiography Of Malcolm X"...and I lived out in the sticks. And then there were the electives.
Who decides what GREAT literature is?
We got The Scarlet Letter, The Mayor of Casterbridge, The Catcher in the Rye. I refused to read Catcher.
But I started selecting my own books in grade school. I probably read at least 4 times as much than school specified. I can't say that the required reading was better even tho the titles were more famous. They were not more informative. Oh yeah, Romeo and Juliet too. Really stupid teenagers. I was so impressed.
You just don't like it when the decision doesn't go with your viewpoint.
Are you telling me that elections to the school board in your district are falsified? I doubt that very much.
But hey...moan and groan all you like. Just remember, there are private schools and home schooling if you don't like the public school system.
Actually this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about of educators not listening. No matter what I say, you are going to twist it how you want. I said NOTHING about falsified. I talked about POLITICS and the time it takes to get new people elected.
And of course you get to inevitable "my way or the highway" response.
So is education a profession, a trade, or work on an assembly line? It appears it wants to be a profession, but has the hallmarks of a assembly line.
Actually this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about of educators not listening. No matter what I say, you are going to twist it how you want. I said NOTHING about falsified. I talked about POLITICS and the time it takes to get new people elected.
And of course you get to inevitable "my way or the highway" response.
So is education a profession, a trade, or work on an assembly line? It appears it wants to be a profession, but has the hallmarks of a assembly line.
This is going to be my last post on the topic.
Politics -- including school board elections -- allows people to vote FOR WHOM THEY WANT REPRESENTING THEM. I was quite fortunate to work in the part of my district where our neighborhoods were represented on the school board by a great school board member. Other principals weren't so lucky. And our school board member had been on the board long before I became principal, through the decade that I was principal, and now after retiring ten years ago, she's still on the board. She's gotten elected every time she runs. Don't you understand why? It's called democracy. That's who the people felt represented their viewpoints on education. In my old home town I remember very well what a conservative school board we had. The school people didn't like it much. But so what? That's who the citizenry wanted. That's democracy...and apparently you're on the short end of the stick with views that seem to be out sync with the constituency in which you live. Tough luck.
No, it isn't my way or the highway. All I'm saying is, you've options. If you don't like the public school system where you are you can move (but nobody's telling you that you have to), or you may be able to access private schools, or you can access home schooling.
But a democracy doesn't mean that you're going to be in the majority. If you're out there on the fringe, elected school boards probably won't make things go your way. And if your "group" were in, think of all the people that would be dissatisfied.
I know you value the last word, so go ahead. It's yours.
Actually this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about of educators not listening. No matter what I say, you are going to twist it how you want. I said NOTHING about falsified. I talked about POLITICS and the time it takes to get new people elected.
And of course you get to inevitable "my way or the highway" response.
So is education a profession, a trade, or work on an assembly line? It appears it wants to be a profession, but has the hallmarks of a assembly line.
Education is its own niche, academia. There are more than 3 million public school teachers in the US, that is nearly double the number of assembly line jobs. Make sense that it would be its own category then doesn't it?
Education is its own niche, academia. There are more than 3 million public school teachers in the US, that is nearly double the number of assembly line jobs. Make sense that it would be its own category then doesn't it?
Ok. What are it's defining characteristics? I've read a lot of discussions on line on both sides of the is/is not a profession argument. You've put forth an alternative. I find that intriguing.
I'd put it the other way around. You want what you want regardless of what the community wants. And you shut out anyone in the community who disagrees. Look at this thread for example. Lots of comments that are some form of "you're not an educator so you don't have a right to say anything" directed toward me and a few others who don't fall in line, yet very little discussion of what actually is and isn't useful information. Just attacks on "who are you to say something isn't useful."
Kind of reminds me of a big parent meeting a couple year back. Room full of all the people educators claim to want involved, from all walks of life. Starts out ok, until someone asks a simple question. The answer comes back in direct opposition to the actual experience of everyone in the room. So someone else questions the answer. Soon degenerates into basically what was just stated above -- you parents don't know what you're talking about, but we educators do and you have to do what we say.
Net result: Half a dozen educators talking to themselves in the auditorium and 200 PO'd parents in the lobby wanting to fire the superintendent and principal because bad culture starts at the top.
Why do I bring that up? Because in spite of what you may believe, I support teachers. But here is the straight skinny: Teachers are their own worst enemy. Teachers as a group seem to spend more effort pissing off those who could best support them in the community -- doctors, lawyers, business leaders -- than they do listening to them.
lkb0714 above called students the "product" of schools. I don't particularly like that term because it dehumanizes them. But let's run with it. I hire your "product." And the "product" coming out of schools today is less prepared to function in the workplace than that coming out 20 or 30 years ago. I see it in the resumes. My professional societies see it and have increased both advocacy for, and support to education. My employer sees it and has dedicated millions to education outreach. We each get paid time off to work with schools. Yet with all that out there, and more, the response from educators is just like this forum: don't bother us, we're too busy drinking our own bathwater.
First of all, I agree there are problems with the education we are providing in public schools. I say public schools because I don't have experience with the wide range of alternative school options. You keep referring to educators but that is a vague term. The decline in our public school education system can't be mainly blamed on teachers or local school boards. They haven't changed that much since I graduated from high school over 45 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff
Ever seen small town politics? There are positions on the school board that are basically inherited. There have been certain families on the board going back decades. You're assuming we haven't run outsiders for the school board. And we've been slowly breaking those cliques in our local board. It takes time because only a portion is up for election each cycle. It's like turning the Titanic.
That's just our local school district. When I talk to coworkers in other school districts, I hear the same thing about their districts.
I find it interesting when you say the boards made decisions the opposite of what the educators wanted. Ours was the other way around. The clique that ran our board rubber stamped whatever the superintendent wanted. It has taken 12 years to break that clique.
Those "public" committees are chosen from the cliques and political inner circle. Very difficult to get anyone outside that circle on any committee. Our local boards (not just school) have been caught numerous times skirting the edge of the Sunshine Law in our state. A common tactic is to post notice of a controversial topic late and schedule the meeting while the public is working.
Just look within this thread. 253, 254, and 269 are just a few. Then many other threads. Perhaps you want to quibble over exact words, but the message has been received loud and clear.
I find school boards to be a group of citizens with a hidden agenda to get involved in micromanaging their local school district. Much of the problem is not their fault. They operate under a model that hasn't changed much in over a hundred years. This is what goes on in a typical school board meeting:
1. They deal with personnel issue such as approving the resignation of a part-time cleaning peerson or hiring a cafeteria worker.
2. The vote on whether to approve school field trips.
3. They discuss and vote on whether to approve new textbooks. Can anyone imagine being handed a 10 grade English literature book or middle school algebra II book and be responsible for deciding whether the district should place an order for 300 of these books?
4. They discuss and vote on a calendar for the following school year.
5. The board hears a presentation vy some administrators about the results of the latest round of standardized testing. The superintendent and principals give some explanation for scores being somewhat low, but try to put a positive spin on them and have recommendations for a new math/reading/science curriculum that they believe will improve results in the next round of testing.
So in other words they are managing the details of the school district and do very little to change the big picture. How could they? They mostly have real jobs that take up the majority of their time. These board are often made up of some very opinionated people with strong ideas of how certain parts of the school district should operate. You will have the construction expert who thinks every school construction project has been a disaster. Another will be the former jock who thinks the long term football coach should be replaced. Another will be the education advocate who thinks more should be done with early childhood literacy. The people come together will vastly different priorities and backgrounds. What are they going to accomplish in their 1.5 hour meetings twice a month when much of the meeting involves paying bills and approving the new part-time janitor?
How about the superintendents and principals? How much do they want to rock the boat? Superintendents are often one of the most highly paid persons in many small towns across the USA.
I could go on, but you can read your own local school board minutes and some towns even broadcast the meetings over their local cable TV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff
Actually this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about of educators not listening. No matter what I say, you are going to twist it how you want. I said NOTHING about falsified. I talked about POLITICS and the time it takes to get new people elected.
And of course you get to inevitable "my way or the highway" response.
So is education a profession, a trade, or work on an assembly line? It appears it wants to be a profession, but has the hallmarks of a assembly line.
What difference does it make what label we or society puts on it? It doesn't change the quality of education one bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff
Ok. What are it's defining characteristics? I've read a lot of discussions on line on both sides of the is/is not a profession argument. You've put forth an alternative. I find that intriguing.
Who cares about defining characteristics? A discussion about whether an educator is considered a profession is counterproductive. The problems with education are not going to be solved by teachers. Some at a much higher level has to decide what we are trying to accomplish with education.
I just spent the past week and a half in two different school districts with three days sub jobs. The problems are beyond description. One job was a high school learning support teaching position where you co-teach with a subject teacher in either a self-contained learning support classroom or in a regular classroom where learning support students are in the same classroom with non-IEP students. I saw very little learning taking place despite the efforts of many teachers and aides. One girl slept on the floor for three consecutive periods. We tried to wake her unsuccessfully several times but she has gotten violent in the past and screamed profanities.
I had three math classes. I worked with students who could not do simple arithmetic. I worked with one girl on a math problem and I asked what 6 minus 4 was? After counting on her fingers, she said she did not know the answer.
The other three day experience was at a middle school. I had half of the 8th grades students in the school. It took me a day to realize that what the teacher meant in her lesson plans about reading a short story was not that students would read either silently or aloud in class. She intended that I would read the short story aloud to the students because most could not and/or refused to read aloud in class. After reading and discussing the story, I asked about the type of story and most students struggle with whether the story was funny or serious. Most remembered few details from the story minutes after reading it.
Both of these school districts are above average in Pennsylvania, which supposedly is above average on all measures of education across all 50 states. It scares me that we are worrying about insignificant issues, while educating a generation where a large percentage are virtually illiterate. This is why I'm not concerned about whether educators are professionals. We need to step away and look at the big picture.
Last edited by villageidiot1; 10-23-2018 at 04:58 PM..
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