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Old 10-11-2018, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Boise, ID
8,046 posts, read 28,371,687 times
Reputation: 9470

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Sometimes an unfair test can be the lesson itself. I had a professor in college who told us that the questions on our tests would be in direct proportion to the amount of time spent on the subject in class or in the textbook. So if he spent a whole day talking about a subject, or there were several pages about it in the text, it would most likely feature strongly on the test.

Test day arrived, and I felt pretty confident in the material. I failed. The highest grade anyone in the class got on that first test was a 62%, and it was not graded on a curve. Every single test question was taken out of the footnotes or passing comments in the class, sometimes before or after class was even in session. The things that were important, that he actually talked about, were nowhere to be seen.

He basically told us it was a lesson to always question. Never assume something is true just because someone in a position of authority told you it is true. Unfortunately, the grade stuck, I ended up getting a C in that class (which was a new experience for me). I lost my scholarship that semester and had to retake the class from another professor to get my GPA back up and get the scholarship back.

So a little lesson in 5th grade that tests aren't always fair, aren't always what you expect, and sometimes we don't get what we feel we deserved, isn't necessarily a bad thing to have a discussion about. I'd rather have learned that lesson in 5th grade than in college where it cost me real money.

Also, from what I saw, the students who had to actually work for their grades growing up did a lot better in college than those who found middle school and high school easy. A little adversity now and then when going through school isn't a terrible thing either.
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:43 PM
 
6,503 posts, read 3,391,597 times
Reputation: 7903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Oh, for crying out loud! We only know a tiny bit of one side of this issue! Document everything you've said. Tell us how you know this.
Not necessary to document anything. It's common sense. The more recent the event, the more clearly people can remember and recall specific details. What sense does it make to lecture about Chapter 2, and follow that up with a test on Chapter 1, covered last week? Too much shifting gears. Test on the chapter immediately after completing it. Then start the next.

The week before exam week, is exam prep week. Take a guess why.

Last edited by toobusytoday; 10-12-2018 at 07:11 AM.. Reason: Removed personal attack. Discuss the posts, don't attack other posters
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Oak Bowery
2,872 posts, read 2,036,614 times
Reputation: 9147
Mom....land that helicopter far away from the school. One question on one test and you’re thinking about going to the principal?

Let
It
Go
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:02 PM
 
12,620 posts, read 8,842,837 times
Reputation: 34496
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
No. It's standard practice for certain math problems to be solved by ending with the most basic equation. Every problem doesn't end with a whole number or integer.

I would expect the question to be worded as solve for X or Y.
I'm teaching a session on Design of Test/Design of Experiment next week, which is why this whole discussion is fascinating. The question posted was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
... If a teacher asks,"X+Y=25, what could X and Y equal?" that's a fair question. ...
which asks "what could X and Y equal, which is different from "solve for X in terms of Y."

There isn't enough information given to answer two unknowns from one equation. This is one of the points of discussion -- when there is insufficient information, people tend to redefine the problem to match the information provided. School and esp Standardized Testing methods tend to reinforce that concept by teaching how to guess from clues within the answer choices and make assumptions that may work mathematically, but aren't founded in solid engineering. Then after they graduate we have to break them of these bad habits.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
19,480 posts, read 24,978,757 times
Reputation: 51106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacerta View Post
Sometimes an unfair test can be the lesson itself. I had a professor in college who told us that the questions on our tests would be in direct proportion to the amount of time spent on the subject in class or in the textbook. So if he spent a whole day talking about a subject, or there were several pages about it in the text, it would most likely feature strongly on the test.

Test day arrived, and I felt pretty confident in the material. I failed. The highest grade anyone in the class got on that first test was a 62%, and it was not graded on a curve. Every single test question was taken out of the footnotes or passing comments in the class, sometimes before or after class was even in session. The things that were important, that he actually talked about, were nowhere to be seen.

He basically told us it was a lesson to always question. Never assume something is true just because someone in a position of authority told you it is true. Unfortunately, the grade stuck, I ended up getting a C in that class (which was a new experience for me). I lost my scholarship that semester and had to retake the class from another professor to get my GPA back up and get the scholarship back.

So a little lesson in 5th grade that tests aren't always fair, aren't always what you expect, and sometimes we don't get what we feel we deserved, isn't necessarily a bad thing to have a discussion about. I'd rather have learned that lesson in 5th grade than in college where it cost me real money.

Also, from what I saw, the students who had to actually work for their grades growing up did a lot better in college than those who found middle school and high school easy. A little adversity now and then when going through school isn't a terrible thing either.
My late husband had something somewhat similar happen to him in a final exam during his first semester of law school. He was always an excellent student, with straight As in elementary, MS, HS, undergraduate and graduate school, so it really took him by surprise. I am sure that he would have wished that he had learned "that lesson" in 5th grade rather than in law school where it caused some long lasting serious effects.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:15 AM
 
725 posts, read 800,431 times
Reputation: 1697
This is a perfect example of the ridiculousness of the education system and the concept of “education” in the first place. Education is another word for indoctrination and brain washing. It has nothing to do with kids acquiring knowledge about the world around them but everything to do with memorizing often useless information and spewing it out on exams and essays to the satisfication of some teacher, administrator and ultimately government, however arbitrary and capricious they might be.

When kids are taught how to think they are programmed with a specific thought process and method for analyzing information. Instead of kids developing their own thought process organically and naturally they get the teacher’s. They are not only “programmed” what to think but how to think. That is not conducive to intellectual development just people who all think the same.

The only thing I actually learned in a top university is how to memorize information short term the day before a final and do the same for my 4 other courses, and in two weeks not remember any of it. Even if some course material were useful in life (although most math will never be used by most and learning about the Carthage and the Roman Empire is interesting but has no practical application just like with most literature course material) kids don’t learn it. Learning has to come naturally and knowledge has to be sought out. Memorizing for a test or exam to please the test grader is not the same thing and actually doing so takes up valuable neural capacity that could be dedicated to actual learned material that will be carried for life instead of two weeks.


Chemistry is hard enough for teenagers to grasp. In fact in high school kids are forced to memorize chemical reactions but don’t actually grasp the concepts or understand the big picture. I don’t see the logic in testing a 5th grader in chemistry.


I understand that employers often require “education” (hopefully that will change) but beyond that there is no honor in it. Intelligence exists independent of education. You can’t teach a genetically dumb person to be smart but you can hinder a genetically intelligent person from harnessing ones intellect through education. If your kid advances successfully in pleasing teachers, ok. If your kid gets “bad grades” don’t place too much emphasis on it given the ridiculousness of the education system and the premise of it in the first place.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,234 posts, read 23,853,725 times
Reputation: 32603
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
Easy. They could have studied the NOTES they took while conducting the experiment. Also, most school experiments have written instructions.
Yes. Exactly. When I taught science, kids kept a science notebook that included all their labs, their notes, and handouts. I'd tell them what to study for the test, and that included the labs. And yes, most science labs have some variation of title, purpose, materials, procedures, observations, and conclusions.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,234 posts, read 23,853,725 times
Reputation: 32603
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
I would talk to the teacher before going to the principal. Just my 2 cents.
That's good advice. And except in unusual circumstances, I (as administrator) would not intervene in a situation unless the parent had talked to the teacher first.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:30 AM
 
3,455 posts, read 4,792,564 times
Reputation: 7002
The test question was to see who paid attention and actually did their lab work. The OP's son obviously did not and failed. That was the whole point of the question on the test and it did the job.

I have a problem believing that it was that hard to remember what was in the cups for a chemistry experiment when they only did a couple of experiments and it is only a small introductory to chemistry section. Especially since if the different materials were used or mixed improperly it could be dangerous. That would make it stand out and register in your mind. One such example would be if it was a few materials that if mixed could result in a reaction releasing chlorine gas which is poisonous.

If the majority of the class did poorly on that section, the teacher should realize that and it tells her it was either a poorly written question or she did not do a good job of instructing. You would think she would do something to offset that grade for the class such as scale it or do some sort of bonus point project. Without knowing the class average score on that part of the test it is hard to really know though. What if the kids in the class that typically do well paid attention during the lab and actually did well on that question but the ones that usually just do enough to get by did poorly?
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:10 AM
 
3,973 posts, read 8,114,111 times
Reputation: 4055
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantompilot View Post
This is is typical of a lazy and/or incompetent teacher who clearly failed to understand the testing materials provided and that the test was SUPPOSED to be administered contemporaneously with the classroom work of the experiment.

Many teachers don't really understand the purpose of testing, and are literally just going through the motions. In an example such as this, the classroom work and the test are part of the same teaching unit/module.

Other examples are handouts that are not handed out with the material on the day its covered in class. When you disaggregate materials like this, they lose their instructional value.
Or....... just maybe the good teacher that he or she is actually reviewed what was going to be on the test with the class the day before they took it and some of the kids were in their own world goofing off and not paying heed to what the teacher told them would be on the test. None of us were in that 5th grade class but the kids and the teacher. Kids tend to call unfair when they don't do well because they fear their parent will be upset if they don't do well on a test.

There is nothing wrong with asking the teacher for a conference to find out what is expected in that class.
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