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Ok, let me give a real life example of what I think you may mean by fair vs just, and you can correct me and/or add more to what I'm saying. I mentioned before my 8th grade social studies teacher, where if Student A cheated off of student B, then Student B would be given a 0 for the exam or assignment, but Student A (the one who actually cheated) would get no penalty. It was a ridiculous penalty since it allowed the cheaters to cheat without penalty, while punishing the smarter kids who were cheated off of. There was a cute girl in the class who I had a crush on (but I had zero chance with). She asked to borrow my homework so that she could copy it. And she promised that she'd get to class early to give me back my homework, so that we wouldn't get caught. I complied, since I had a crush on her. Unfortunately, she was late to class, so I did not get my homework back when it was time to hand it in. So, under the rules, I got a 0. Ironically, she also got a 0, since by being late to class, she failed to hand in her homework on time.
Under your definition, I'm thinking that it was "fair" that he gave me a 0. That was the same penalty he gave other students who allowed others to cheat. And, as ridiculous as the rule was, I was fully aware of the rule, I was fully aware of the consequences, and and I knowingly broke the rule anyway. However, I would say that it was not "just" that he gave me a 0. The only purpose that grades should serve is to measure how well you know the material. I obviously knew the material, so the grade should have reflected it. I should not have been given a 0 for disciplinary purposes. On the other hand, I did deserve a punishment, maybe a detention, for what I did.
On the other hand, I would say that it was not "fair" that the girl got a 0, since he normally did not punish the student who cheated. Also, he did not normally give a 0 to students who were late to class. So she was given a punishment that others did not get that she could not have foreseen when she chose to cheat. However, I would say that it was "just" that she got a 0, because she cheated and did not actually do the homework, so she did not deserve any grade other than a 0 for the homework.
Is that how you use fair vs just?
I'd look at it as fair as the rules are the same and known. Way to often kids, and often the adults who should be guiding them, treat "fair" as an outcome. Usually in terms of the person who has less of something, considers it unfair that someone else has more, regardless of what that other person did to earn it. It's not fair that he gets a cookie and I don't even though he clean his room and I didn't. It's not fair that Sally got an A and Johnny didn't even though Sally did her homework and Johnny didn't. That's not what fairness is about, so often how schools treat it.
Just is that the outcome matches the input. I would agree that grades should be based on work performed, and not used as a reward and punishment. That diminishes the purpose of grading from an assessment of performance to a treat for following the rules. Should be two different things.
I'd look at it as fair as the rules are the same and known. Way to often kids, and often the adults who should be guiding them, treat "fair" as an outcome. Usually in terms of the person who has less of something, considers it unfair that someone else has more, regardless of what that other person did to earn it. It's not fair that he gets a cookie and I don't even though he clean his room and I didn't. It's not fair that Sally got an A and Johnny didn't even though Sally did her homework and Johnny didn't. That's not what fairness is about, so often how schools treat it.
So, in the example I gave, it was "fair" that I got a 0, since I knew the rules, I knew the penalty for breaking the rule, and I chose to break it any way. But it was not "fair" that the girl got a 0 (remember, she did not get a 0 because she cheated, but because she was late to class and thus failed to hand in the assignment on time), since he did not normally give a 0 to students who were late to class, and she had no way of knowing that she'd get a 0 if she was late (and she knew that she would not get a 0 for cheating).
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Just is that the outcome matches the input. I would agree that grades should be based on work performed, and not used as a reward and punishment. That diminishes the purpose of grading from an assessment of performance to a treat for following the rules. Should be two different things.
So, in the example I gave, it was not "just" that I got a 0, because I worked hard on the assignment and got everything correct, but was given a 0 for breaking the rules. But it was "just" that the girl got a 0, because she did not actually do the assignment, so a grade of 0 reflected that.
As another example, people often say that when there is a resource where demand exceeds supply, that a random lottery is a "fair" way to assign the resource, since everybody gets an equal chance. But my problem is that it neither gives people the opportunity to earn the resource, nor does it give the resource to whoever needs it the most or would benefit the most. So could you say that a random lottery is not "just", even if "fair"? The problem is, is "just" defined based on who earned the resource, based on who needs the resource the most, or based on who would benefit the most from the resource? Often, those 3 factors would contradict each other. So I think that's why people often revert to a "fair" random lottery.
And how does any of that answer my question about how "fair" and "just" are different from each other? That's the only reason why I mentioned that incident. I mentioned it one time in the past when a poster was upset because her daughter was punished by a teacher with a similar policy.
I think my point was that there are various components of ‘learning’ we do in school. It is not always about grades, particularly before high school since grades arguably don’t matter very much. Even in HS, they may matter, but despite your numerous arguments to the contrary, they rarely make or break anyone’s life.
I know multiple people who dropped out of HS, got a GED, and went on to get graduate degrees. That’s one positive of US public education. We have a lot of focus on how well kids do on standardized tests through 12th grade. The issue in many countries is that it ends there and their higher education institutions aren’t that great. That isn’t the case everywhere, as many countries do have great universities, but in the highly competitive places like Japan, college is pretty much a joke and all about joining clubs and activities. It’s also SO high stakes that it’s pretty hard to come back later if you decide you want to go to college at an older age.
Certainly there are circumstances where what a teacher does is not fair or just, but at that point, it’s a parents’ role to discuss the situation with the child and let them know that these things happen. It really is not that big a deal unless we’re talking a situation where a person is getting expelled. It is really not healthy for parents to harp on kids for getting a bad grade for eons. Yes, perhaps when it happens, but then it is time to move on. And yes, I had parents who freaked out if I got bad grades, but ultimately I moved on with my life.
I think my point was that there are various components of ‘learning’ we do in school. It is not always about grades, particularly before high school since grades arguably don’t matter very much. Even in HS, they may matter, but despite your numerous arguments to the contrary, they rarely make or break anyone’s life.
Most people are not willing to take the chance that they can screw up in school now and dig themselves out of their hole later on in life.
I think my point was that there are various components of ‘learning’ we do in school. It is not always about grades, particularly before high school since grades arguably don’t matter very much. Even in HS, they may matter, but despite your numerous arguments to the contrary, they rarely make or break anyone’s life.
I know multiple people who dropped out of HS, got a GED, and went on to get graduate degrees. That’s one positive of US public education. We have a lot of focus on how well kids do on standardized tests through 12th grade. The issue in many countries is that it ends there and their higher education institutions aren’t that great. That isn’t the case everywhere, as many countries do have great universities, but in the highly competitive places like Japan, college is pretty much a joke and all about joining clubs and activities. It’s also SO high stakes that it’s pretty hard to come back later if you decide you want to go to college at an older age.
Certainly there are circumstances where what a teacher does is not fair or just, but at that point, it’s a parents’ role to discuss the situation with the child and let them know that these things happen. It really is not that big a deal unless we’re talking a situation where a person is getting expelled. It is really not healthy for parents to harp on kids for getting a bad grade for eons. Yes, perhaps when it happens, but then it is time to move on. And yes, I had parents who freaked out if I got bad grades, but ultimately I moved on with my life.
I am one of those people who was a stellar A student in elementary school. Then the first month in junior high my guidance counselor told me that I was "just a C student"*, so since I was taught the adult is always right, that's what I became...and sometimes a D student. High school grades were bad enough that I had to start college at a community college, transferred to the state university, where I got my bachelor's and master's degrees in geology, then got a grad degree in educational admin and curriculum, and became a very successful science teacher and then principal. And, as I think you're pointing out, in American education it's never too late if you take the initiative. No, not every one needs to go to college, but everyone should to be able to go to college.
* Years later I finally realized that he was looking at the file of another student in my junior-senior high school with the same name.
I am one of those people who was a stellar A student in elementary school. Then the first month in junior high my guidance counselor told me that I was "just a C student"*, so since I was taught the adult is always right, that's what I became...and sometimes a D student. High school grades were bad enough that I had to start college at a community college, transferred to the state university, where I got my bachelor's and master's degrees in geology, then got a grad degree in educational admin and curriculum, and became a very successful science teacher and then principal. And, as I think you're pointing out, in American education it's never too late if you take the initiative. No, not every one needs to go to college, but everyone should to be able to go to college.
* Years later I finally realized that he was looking at the file of another student in my junior-senior high school with the same name.
The reality is that the brain doesn’t stop developing until the mid- to late 20s, so it’s ridiculous to think of K-12 as the end all and be all of education. Some kids are simply not developed enough during their HS years to do well, and there is no issue with that as long as there are opportunities for further education later on. To some extent, I feel like some later developers can do better overall in life since they had a longer time to find what interested them. In contrast, some people forge ahead with a specific goal they’ve had since age 12 only to find out after 6-8+ years of post-secondary education that they actually hate it. What do you do then when you’ve put so much time into that education?
So, in the example I gave, it was "fair" that I got a 0, since I knew the rules, I knew the penalty for breaking the rule, and I chose to break it any way. But it was not "fair" that the girl got a 0 (remember, she did not get a 0 because she cheated, but because she was late to class and thus failed to hand in the assignment on time), since he did not normally give a 0 to students who were late to class, and she had no way of knowing that she'd get a 0 if she was late (and she knew that she would not get a 0 for cheating).
So, in the example I gave, it was not "just" that I got a 0, because I worked hard on the assignment and got everything correct, but was given a 0 for breaking the rules. But it was "just" that the girl got a 0, because she did not actually do the assignment, so a grade of 0 reflected that.
As another example, people often say that when there is a resource where demand exceeds supply, that a random lottery is a "fair" way to assign the resource, since everybody gets an equal chance. But my problem is that it neither gives people the opportunity to earn the resource, nor does it give the resource to whoever needs it the most or would benefit the most. So could you say that a random lottery is not "just", even if "fair"? The problem is, is "just" defined based on who earned the resource, based on who needs the resource the most, or based on who would benefit the most from the resource? Often, those 3 factors would contradict each other. So I think that's why people often revert to a "fair" random lottery.
In the example you gave, I'd say it was fair to both of you in that you knew the rules and broke the intentionally knowing the consequences and fair to her because she was graded on her work -- IE got a 0 because she didn't turn in her work to be graded.
However I wouldn't call it just because for you the punishment was in the grade which should have been on the product you provided. The punishment should instead have been something -- detention, work hours, something that put the focus on the behavior and not on the homework.
For your other problem, consider the "Cold Equations." Too many people on a spacecraft for the life support to sustain. Who goes out the airlock? Random lots? Least valuable? A much more nuanced version of the trolley problem.
Every so often someone starts one of these “Failure of US public education”threads. Failed by what metric?
Consider how many people US public schools have successfully educated over time. I’d say it’s actually very successful at educating the public. Sure we can focus on what’s gone wrong …but can we consider the scale of what we are discussing here?
Public school is a government service. Like any other public service, it is designed to serve the masses with some efficiency.There will be little customization and there will be failures. Systems like these are designed to do the most good for the highest number of people, not to serve the individual.
By that standard, it functions as intended. I’m not saying there’s no room for improvement (there’s plenty) but to declare US public education as a whole a “failure” while considering the sheer scale of it is a bit ridiculous.
I have been lucky to have experienced education overseas and I can safely say few Americans alive today have any concept of what a true failed school system (Or government) looks like.Yet its a favorite pastrime to throw those terms about.
Those that are experiencing failing schools in the US today have my sympathies. They need solutions and quickly. Those will involve more than just ‘fixing’ the schools as schools rarely fail due to a single factor.
The vast majority however have better resources, facilities, examination, services, access and instruction than many places in the world can dare to dream up. This has been the case for so long that most Americans take it for granted. It’s not at all surprising that the children of immigrants, especially from Asian countries wipe the floor with our so called “failed” school system.
The state of US public education is far from perfect. There are opportunities for change and improvement everywhere. But it absolutely has not “failed”. That is an exaggeration. Those that want customization and extras have plenty of options from ranging from Private education to unschooling.
For those without these options, US public education still serves them comparatively better than most.
Last edited by BLDSoon; 09-22-2022 at 09:52 PM..
Reason: Clarity
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