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To be honest IMO it would be better if colleges had entrance exams like they do in germany. If students are good, they won't have any problems solving the problems or answering the questions and get in. The way this system is it's made to be taken advantage of.
This is what the SAT/ACT system in the US is for. Those with lower scores are filtered to 2nd or 3rd-tier state schools, or podunk private schools.
Only that tnff has extensive formal education and the broad definition of liberal arts leads to lots of confusion sometimes even acrimony.
IIRC tnff is a physicist. To him math and physics aren't liberal arts.
Being a physicist doesn't change facts. Math and physics ... Along with other sciences are liberal arts. Let's stop changing definitions to align with rhetoric.
The point is, you get an "arts" degree with a science major, as opposed to what tnff said: "Instead it comes from the common understanding that "liberal arts" means things like, but not limited to English, Lit, Geography, Music, Art, Philosophy, and other non-technical courses."
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Originally Posted by TexasLawyer2000
I have extensive formal education. That doesn't give me or tnff the ability to change definitions.
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Originally Posted by IDoPhysicsPhD
Being a physicist doesn't change facts. Math and physics ... Along with other sciences are liberal arts. Let's stop changing definitions to align with rhetoric.
This argument comes up every time this subject is discussed. To be clear, I know the classic definition of liberal arts. I also know that when talking to the general public, what they mean by "the liberal arts" or "humanities" or philosophy or basically any of the classical studies are all lumped together and used interchangeably to describe any educational path that doesn't lead toward some specific, in their view, useful degree.
If you go back and read my actual statement, you'll see that I was commenting toward whether the public was reacting to the word "liberal" vs my opinion the public is reacting toward their view of what they consider being useless.
Simply put, it doesn't matter what the academic definition is. What matters is what the taxpaying, voting, general public believes it is. Because when the budget gets cut, which department do you think the public is going to support vs which one do they consider not worth the money?
Simply put, it doesn't matter what the academic definition is. What matters is what the taxpaying, voting, general public believes it is. Because when the budget gets cut, which department do you think the public is going to support vs which one do they consider not worth the money?
I agree. Fortunately, the general public definition and academic definition line up. It's the few uninformed that throw these discussions off.
If we're cutting public funding to college education, we should cut it all off.
As it is, everybody and their mom can go to college, as a result, student debt is insane and lots of people are just dumb and shouldn't be in college at all. What if there were far stricter requirements, say only the smartest most intelligent people were allowed to go to college? Kind of like how it was back in the day?
How intelligent is a person who goes to college and racks up six figure debt? “Back in the day†people either saved for college, they got scholarships, or gasp! they worked while going to school. My daughter will graduate with zero debt because she works 20 hours a week plus baby sits for extra cash. Now that’s intelligent.
Test them, eliminate all college remedial classes (paid for, but no credit) and return them to the high schools that graduated them, prematurely, to fix their problem. It would expose the sham to increase high school graduation rates.
Now I wouldn't go THAT far. What I would say is that remedial courses are a scam. At least the testing portion of such. The testing I feel is a way for the schools to milk more money out of students. Had I had not had to retake two classes and been able to graduate from community college a semester or so beforehand. I had to take Math 092 and Math 121 and had A's in both. In fact I was an A-student in Math other than introductory algebra (I got a B but maybe better deserved a C because it was French to me even if I did get Math otherwise.) These two could have been swapped with a computer course and a business law course that I needed to retake since I was in a different state from the credits earned and the four-year school I was looking to transfer couldn't take them.
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Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla
I think it's just fine for colleges to offer remedial courses if they want to. Many older adults return to college and have forgotten things they learned from 20, 30 or more years ago.
We also don't need adults returning to high school to learn alongside teenagers.
I think it is fine but it shouldn't be forced by testing or suggested by professors early on. Forced through placement testing IMHO is a scam done by the community college systems.
Real universities and colleges are hard to get into and turn away many more applicants than they accept. I believe the fraction of American students attending real universities and colleges is about what it always was - what, maybe 10%?
There are also a lot of entities that call themselves "college" or "university" but lack academic rigor or standards.
Most educated people are able to recognize the difference.
Please name some "real" colleges and universities. Would you consider
Michigan State University
University of Michigan
Texas A&M university
University of Houston
University of Virginia
Emory
Wake Forest
The above are all Alma Maters for myself, my husband, and various family members. I hope we all matriculated from "real" universities
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