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I have 20 years of work experience in software testing. As a guy who has reviewed thousands of lines, I agree that there are good programmers who did not finish college. But the truly elite usually finished a rigorous curriculum that has these key topics with a heightened intensity hard to replicate while studying alone:
* Discrete Math: conjunctions, disjunctions, boolean algebra, set theory, growth patterns, graph theory, proofs, etc.
* Object-Oriented Design and Programming: UML with C++, Java, Python, etc.
* Database Design and Programming: ER diagrams, primary/foreign keys, cardinality, SQL, normal forms
* Data Structures and Algorithms: queue, stack, recursion, binary search tree, hash map, b+ tree, prefix, postfix, linked lists, dynamic arrays, etc.
I just wanted to mention that you can take courses in all or some of the above topics *for free* via many online resources (Coursera, Edx, Udacity, etc). Stanford offers a great free 3 part course in Algorithms and data structures. Some of these platforms that offer paid courses also offer 'scholarships' for students who are unable to afford the nominal course fees. These are often underwritten by Google and others, so you can see there is a industry demand for voluntary upskilling.
And if it is a formal CS degree you are looking for, there are a bunch of online programs offering degree track courses at a fraction of the price from the in-classroom option. I'm currently doing my MSCS online but - to be frank - no employer I have interviewed for has cared about that. They only care if I can solve the algorithm questions during the coding interview, a skill that can be obtained by spending enough time solving problems on LeetCode. I am doing the CS degree for my own edification and also to gain a better understanding of the fundamental, academic topics which are mentioned in the list above.
Simple: you read everything and then sort it out and come to your own conclusions. That requires a certain amount of brains. If you need someone to direct you, it'll probably be a waste of time anyway.
Had you ever developed some real expertise in some area, you'd now know that textbooks are just an opinion of what the authors believe is true and isn't necessarily true. History books in general may be the best example if that--"History is written by the victors." But in the sciences, it's a more subtle point.
Empidonax-- your long posts are fleshing out my paragraph about Cicero's treatise. ..OTOH- Ralph is right in that course work doesn't for the most part teach you info you'll need for a job as it teaches you how to learn that job once you have it.
First day of medical school, our Dean greeted us with a short speech. I remember two points:
"During the next four yrs, you will learn how to learn how to practice medicine."..and "During the next four yrs, you will learn that 90% of your patients will survive, no mater what you do to them."
That's quite insulting. You don't know me from a cake of soap.
I hate to see kids today determined that must go to college and then end up with a job that didnt need it. They have many thousands of student loan debt and not enough money to pay them back,, The interest they are charged snowballs and they go deeper and deeper into debt that can ruin their entire lives.....The colleges and the student loan sharks work together and the students get ripped off.
I hate to see kids today determined that must go to college and then end up with a job that didnt need it. They have many thousands of student loan debt and not enough money to pay them back,, The interest they are charged snowballs and they go deeper and deeper into debt that can ruin their entire lives.....The colleges and the student loan sharks work together and the students get ripped off.
How do you know that's the last job they'll ever have? That they'll never find a job in their field. The student loan problem (I hate to call it a "crisis") needs to be resolved, but that's a separate issue.
I came very close to going that same route. I was also an International Relations major, and was in the Air Force ROTC. At the end of my junior year of college I went to ROTC summer camp, a 30 day basic training for officer candidates. I designated my three preferred job assignments as intelligence, computers, and weather. I got along poorly with my TAC officer who tried his best to wash me out (think of the movie "An Officer and a Gentleman" to get an idea). About 20 minutes before graduation ceremonies he called me into his office and offered me a choice of either washing out or amending my contract to go to filight school on graduation and become a pilot with an additional 2 year commitment (total of 6). His exact words were "Flight school will knock the cockiness out of you." It was 1967 and I guess he had a pilot quota to fill. I refused and parted ways with the Air Force. Had they put me in intelligence, I would have gotten to use my degree. Had they put me in computers, I probably would have made a career in the service. Funny how things turn out. 22 years later I got the opportunity to be a unix sys admin and dba without any education or certifications in the field. Learned it all on the job and did it until I retired, and then another two years as a contractor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
My poli-sci (international studies) degree was very useful to me in my military intelligence career.
But the IT certs I gained as my military career came to a close was what paid the mortgage through the next 20 years (although, yeah, that old poli-sci degree got me the interview).
So, with all of that guidance at your disposal, did you learn how to learn how to practice medicine? Or would you have been better off reading at a library?
Medicine is, obviously, a complex field that involves both immense rote fact memorization and immense learned skills. A good surgeon is both an excellent scholar and a skilled "craftsman." Conference of the doctorate proves the scholarship, but it takes many more years to hone the craft (and the scholarship must continue as well).
The social fact is that the majority of people just want a job--a way to meet the rent payments.
I hate to see kids today determined that must go to college and then end up with a job that didnt need it. They have many thousands of student loan debt and not enough money to pay them back,, The interest they are charged snowballs and they go deeper and deeper into debt that can ruin their entire lives.....The colleges and the student loan sharks work together and the students get ripped off.
The government (which includes school counselors) is complicit in that. A high school senior could have a D average, and the counselor will still be pushing him into college. And colleges gladly sell such nonsense as "Bachelor of Science in General Studies," which is nothing but a cash grab.
More significantly, the "No Child Left Behind" program actually penalized schools that had technical training curriculums.
I am so glad I went to college and got advanced degrees. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. It opened my eyes to so much that I wouldn't have otherwise known about or experienced. I took courses in many topics from Japanese literature to geology to statistics to ancient history. Oh, and grad school trained me for a professional job too.
Agree. I loved college. I got my BA in Poli Sci and Philosophy but went to professional school after. I got to learn all kinds of broad based things that many who see college as a jobs program did not. I live close enough to my alma later to go down an watch college football at bars near the campus. I wouldn’t have had that connection, nor be forced out of my parents house at 17 if it weren’t for college.
Ugh, here we go again. We get it. You love college and think it's a bullet proof plan to becoming successful. It's not. Education is only half the battle. When it comes to IT (which programming is apart of), reciting everything you learned in college like a mindless drone does not mean you'd be the best employee out there! Your perception of college is so outdated. One of your posts stated that anyone can get their doctorate. No, they can't. Only a select few have the drive and will to go that far. Not everyone is built for that. You really need to understand how big of a field IT is. Sure, maybe with some more education or a degree of some sort could land the OP a better job that pays more. Or, maybe in her eyes, she has found her dream job, and makes enough money to live comfortably. Or maybe the company she works for has plenty of room for growth, and she can take advantage of that. and get a higher salary. Where's your degree now? Doesn't matter where because she got what she wanted. See what I'm saying?
The world is a lot bigger than IT.
Why can’t college be a great way to have an advantage while also recognizing that it’s not fool proof and is expensive
I think it's because the economics are different. When I got my BA from the University of California in 1968, tuition was $300 a semester. Now it is $13,000 a semester. Using the inflation tables for the past 49 years it should have only risen to $2100 a semester. I was able to live at home, commute to school and work and pay most of it with part time work during the school year and full time work in the summer, working at minimum wage.
When I attended a year of law school in 1969-70 at the University of California, tuotion was $1200 a semester. Once again I could work and go to school and pay for my own room and board, tuition and books, with very minimal student loans ($3000 for the year). Today a year of law school tuition at that school for a state resident is $44,000 per year, plus books and living accomodations. Once again, using inflation tables it should only have risen to $18,000. Had tuition kept pace with inflation rather than rising at between 2 and 6 times the inflation rate, it would still be as good an investment as it was then.
I never went back for the second and third years of law school, but for those that did, the hiring rate during the first year out of school for those passed the bar was about 35%. I had a good experience, but I didn't impact myself financially for decades when it didn't work out. For those with the money to burn, you are correct. For those without it, or those who don't want more than a hundred thousand in debt with no guarantee of a job when they graduate, it may not be.
The world may be bigger than IT, but it's the only field I worked in that allowed me to gain expertise that few others had, be appreciated, well paid, and left alone by my bosses. For me that was priceless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64
The world is a lot bigger than IT.
Why can’t college be a great way to have an advantage while also recognizing that it’s not fool proof and is expensive
Last edited by bobspez; 09-14-2019 at 03:06 PM..
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