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Old 10-21-2019, 11:00 PM
 
6,503 posts, read 3,410,265 times
Reputation: 7903

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Informed Info View Post
Which private schools would those be?

Everything is specific to the state, county town/district.

You don't send your kid to the public schools in my town or the towns surrounding my town.

Not if you care about your child's education.

You have to move to a town where the property taxes fall more in to the $50K-$150 range (and your house cost you at the very least $1.5M) - to get a public school worth it's tax payer dollars.

The worst districts in NJ get the most spent on them because they have been "ruled" Abbot districts.

Millions upon millions go in to these districts every year and NOTHING changes. Never has, never will.



You can't fix generational stupid in any state.
In NC it's the better performing schools that get the most funding. Now the tactic there is that people are trying to close down all the good schools and "redistribute" the spoils (budget) to those schools that historically could never perform.
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Old 10-21-2019, 11:19 PM
 
Location: near bears but at least no snakes
26,650 posts, read 28,547,840 times
Reputation: 50477
Originally Posted by in_newengland

...
It's probably been said a million times: Leave the teachers alone. Let them teach. There are really no "new" strategies and tricks to teaching. A good teacher looks at each kid as an individual and tries to teach them in their own way. Teachers do not need more gimmicks and silly tricks to teach them how to teach. Just save your money and LET THEM TEACH.

-------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Let me ask you a question about that.

Thinking back to your elementary, middle/junior high, high school years, (to keep it simple), how would you grade your teachers.

What percent were "A teachers"? "B teachers", "C teachers", "D teachers", "F teachers"?
I'd say about 98% of my teachers throughout school were "A teachers." The "F teacher" was an algebra teacher who would humiliate kids and he seemed to enjoy doing it. I think he was fired because he didn't even last the semester.

The "C teacher" was a high school English teacher who really wanted to be in NYC working in publishing. Consequently, he would just stand there and mumble (because he really wasn't a good teacher) or else he'd clown around with a couple of kids who sat in the first row. I had him for TWO years because a wonderful English teacher died. After that he went to NYC and worked in publishing.

A 7th grade science teacher was a "C teacher" because he talked way over our heads and gave assignments that were too hard when you considered that he never explained anything and was really vague about what the assignment was supposed to be. He made me feel dumb.

All my other teachers were incredible. As one example, back in this thread when people were talking about Eli Whitney and the cotton gin, in 5th or 6th grade, not only did we learn about him and his invention and the implications, but the teacher actually brought in some (raw?) cotton. It was cotton just as it had been picked, with these brown seeds in it. We passed it around and really got an understanding of the importance of a machine that would remove the seeds.

I could go on and on--we had wonderful teachers. We got stuck with a horrible new superintendent one time and he was on an ego trip and he fired quite a few of the high school teachers AND he even fired our beloved principal. Our principal handled it by calling us, grade by grade, to the auditorium and there he would say his good bye and wish us well but he never bad mouthed the idiot new superintendent who had done this. He just said that his work apparently wasn't good enough for his superiors. And then we were sent back to our classrooms with orders to not talk about it and not tell the next class what the assembly was about.

He was a pure class act. And when we were back in our classrooms, the teachers acted perfectly and didn't talk about it, just kept quiet, no bad mouthing, nothing. Most of us were fighting back tears but the teachers were exemplary role models for us.
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Old 10-22-2019, 01:40 AM
 
Location: interior Alaska
6,895 posts, read 5,825,998 times
Reputation: 23410
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
2. You think not paying professionals beans is a good thing that is likely to attract the best talent?

3. A few of the "mid-career" people you described we hired. A few were good. More didn't work out at all.

4. Considering that most mid-career people earn more than teachers, it's not likely many will want to move into teaching. We had such applicants. And usually when they heard where they'd be on salary scale they turned down offers.
I'm not surprised. Why would someone who is successful and skilled in their profession quit mid-career to take up a new, less financially lucrative profession? I mean, I can think of some sensible reasons to retrain as a teacher - discharge from the military, developing a disability that precludes one's previous profession, relocating to an area where the previous profession is not lucrative, etc. - but those situations aren't super common. It seems to me that if schools tried to replace career teachers en masse with career other-jobs, they're more likely to get the burnouts from those professions than the cream of that crop. Like, the successful accountants are going to remain accountants, not become math teachers. Of course, there are plenty of individual exceptions, but generally speaking, schools are not about to poach top talent from medicine, law, business, engineering, etc. They'll get a lot of people who couldn't hack it in their original profession.

Last edited by Frostnip; 10-22-2019 at 02:22 AM..
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Old 10-22-2019, 02:20 AM
 
Location: interior Alaska
6,895 posts, read 5,825,998 times
Reputation: 23410
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Estonia, Russia and Vietnam all spend far less than half what we do. Russia $4,437 per year for example per The OECD.
I have lived in both Russia and Vietnam. Russia does not have special education. Vietnam has special education in theory, but in practice, few government schools have the funding to offer it, although the situation is much improved over what it was before the economy took off in the early 2000s. This is a HUGE expense that American schools are on the hook for, that Russia and Vietnam are not.

It is widely agreed in Russia that schools there are underfunded, but of course, finding the funds is an issue. I went to school there and I would say Russian government schools compare favorably to western public schools, but there is a major issue looming: the average teacher now is quite aged, as they're largely holdovers from Soviet times. Young people are not going in to teaching now because the pay is terrible, even by Russian standards. As the old guard exits there will be a huge teacher shortage.

One way in which the Russian education system has always saved money compared to the US has been "economy of scale," as it's basically one system for the entire Union/Federation. I don't see the US embracing such a thing any time soon.

I was very impressed with the enthusiasm I saw from Vietnamese students and educators, but I don't think the average American would much want to send their child to a typical Vietnamese school. Most schools are very regimented and the purpose of all exercises is to do well on standardized exams. Lots of rote memorization, recitation, etc. Facilities are extremely basic in many parts of the country.
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Old 10-22-2019, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,436 posts, read 24,019,968 times
Reputation: 32760
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
When making that statement, it allows that:

1. Not all private schools are necessarily good

2. Even highly rated ones can have an imbalance in how holistic their academics are, however slight

3. Sure, public schools can be great. Whether charter, magnet, or none of the above

Private schools, by their very nature not being held to the state curriculum, may have greater deficiencies in science and math vs. public. I am absolutely aware of and do not deny this possibility.
And, private school admit whatever they want. They don't take everyone...like public schools have to.
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Old 10-22-2019, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,436 posts, read 24,019,968 times
Reputation: 32760
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
In my state even the worst private schools offer parents what they want most--no black children in their children's school. A few schools have begun admitting black athletes so that their schools will be more competitive, but in general and outside a few rather progressive academies, Mississippi private schools are lily white. Most of them were founded as segregation academies and they are still serving that purpose. The only white students who attend public schools in many areas of the state come from families that can't scrape together the relatively low tuition for the schools where all the other white children attend.
Thank you for saying that!
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Old 10-22-2019, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,436 posts, read 24,019,968 times
Reputation: 32760
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
1. In my experience private schools are on an different wavelength than public schools. Saint Marks down the street, which was unfortunately significantly damaged by last night's tornado, sports ~25% of this year's seniors as NMSFs.

2. My point was that most times private school teachers make less than their public school brother and sisters.

3. Forgive me if I'm not particularly consumed by your thoughts on hiring mid-career professionals.

_________________________

What we are doing now isn't working.
That depends on where you are.
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Old 10-22-2019, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,436 posts, read 24,019,968 times
Reputation: 32760
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Why not be specific?

The 31st out out 35 thing is a cold fact.
That may be a fact.

This is hyperbole: "we have legions of terrible teachers who are clock watching functionaries". The ratio of good to bad teachers is pretty much the same as in any profession.
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Old 10-22-2019, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,436 posts, read 24,019,968 times
Reputation: 32760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Informed Info View Post
Which private schools would those be?

Everything is specific to the state, county town/district.

You don't send your kid to the public schools in my town or the towns surrounding my town.

Not if you care about your child's education.

You have to move to a town where the property taxes fall more in to the $50K-$150 range (and your house cost you at the very least $1.5M) - to get a public school worth it's tax payer dollars.

The worst districts in NJ get the most spent on them because they have been "ruled" Abbot districts.

Millions upon millions go in to these districts every year and NOTHING changes. Never has, never will.



You can't fix generational stupid in any state.
Try Fairfax County in Virginia.
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Old 10-22-2019, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,436 posts, read 24,019,968 times
Reputation: 32760
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
Originally Posted by in_newengland

...
It's probably been said a million times: Leave the teachers alone. Let them teach. There are really no "new" strategies and tricks to teaching. A good teacher looks at each kid as an individual and tries to teach them in their own way. Teachers do not need more gimmicks and silly tricks to teach them how to teach. Just save your money and LET THEM TEACH.

-------------------------------------------------------



I'd say about 98% of my teachers throughout school were "A teachers." The "F teacher" was an algebra teacher who would humiliate kids and he seemed to enjoy doing it. I think he was fired because he didn't even last the semester.

The "C teacher" was a high school English teacher who really wanted to be in NYC working in publishing. Consequently, he would just stand there and mumble (because he really wasn't a good teacher) or else he'd clown around with a couple of kids who sat in the first row. I had him for TWO years because a wonderful English teacher died. After that he went to NYC and worked in publishing.

A 7th grade science teacher was a "C teacher" because he talked way over our heads and gave assignments that were too hard when you considered that he never explained anything and was really vague about what the assignment was supposed to be. He made me feel dumb.

All my other teachers were incredible. As one example, back in this thread when people were talking about Eli Whitney and the cotton gin, in 5th or 6th grade, not only did we learn about him and his invention and the implications, but the teacher actually brought in some (raw?) cotton. It was cotton just as it had been picked, with these brown seeds in it. We passed it around and really got an understanding of the importance of a machine that would remove the seeds.

I could go on and on--we had wonderful teachers. We got stuck with a horrible new superintendent one time and he was on an ego trip and he fired quite a few of the high school teachers AND he even fired our beloved principal. Our principal handled it by calling us, grade by grade, to the auditorium and there he would say his good bye and wish us well but he never bad mouthed the idiot new superintendent who had done this. He just said that his work apparently wasn't good enough for his superiors. And then we were sent back to our classrooms with orders to not talk about it and not tell the next class what the assembly was about.

He was a pure class act. And when we were back in our classrooms, the teachers acted perfectly and didn't talk about it, just kept quiet, no bad mouthing, nothing. Most of us were fighting back tears but the teachers were exemplary role models for us.
I would say you were lucky. In elementary school I had 4 wonderful teachers, 2 good teachers, and one very poor teacher. That ratio dropped in junior high and high school, but still generally good.

However, as has been (in my view) exaggerated in this thread, there are bad teachers and bad principals, and they need to be supervised. Except for those people who don't work or own their own business, everyone has a boss, and that includes those who work in education.
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