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Old 11-12-2019, 10:12 AM
 
57 posts, read 14,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Win.
What did you win?
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:16 AM
 
10,218 posts, read 10,554,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Shadow View Post
What did you win?
Used chewing gum.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
599 posts, read 224,708 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I think we need to get rid of this notion that some people just can't do algebra. Sure, it's easier for some than others. But anyone of normal intelligence should be able to pass a basic algebra course. Schools need to do more to encourage an "I can do it" attitude.

Anyone who goes into any type of health care that requires calculating doses will have to use algebra. If you work in an office or small facility, you will not have a pharmacist to do it for you like they do in big hospitals.
And how will you do this?

Millions of kids are from parents who have the "I no can do" attitude. I grew up in the South - trust me, I know how this works. You can't expect teachers to turn those kids around - if kids (and their parents) believe they can't do math, advanced or otherwise, they ain't gonna be doing no math. LOL. We've been trying to do this for a hundred years - people really think we can start working miracles now?

It's time to stop forcing those who don't want to learn to do things they're unwilling / unable to accomplish. It's not fair to the other students, it's not fair to the teachers, and it's not fair to the taxpayer, who are forced to pay ever-increasing sums for mediocre results.

I like the British system that was mentioned earlier - it allows the children who wish to learn and improve their skills to do just that. Those that don't, well, they get left behind. Just like the kids who get left behind in this country. That'll never change.

Better to accept this now and use our limited resources where it'll do the most good - like teaching math classes to kids who have a desire to learn and are willing to do the work in order to learn.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
31,038 posts, read 13,150,720 times
Reputation: 23717
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie1215 View Post
Many jobs require a high school diploma, even if abstract algebra or analyzing complex literature is not part of the job. Yet abstract algebra and advanced mathematics is often a requirement for a diploma. Some students will never understand it no matter what, even with intensive tutoring. I do think all students should learn statistical algebra, like mortgages, finance, budgeting, percentages, loans, compounding interest, graphs, fractions, data plots, etc. Abstract algebra should be optional. I am referring to solving equations like 2(x2-1)+3x(x+ 4) or finding the function or the value of X.

I checked the requirements for a security position in my county’s library system. The security job duties patrolling the library, providing exceptional customer service, aiding sick and injured people, confronting and de-escalating problems and informing departments on fire/safety issues. This job requires a high school diploma and the posting said some college preferred, even though you won't be finding the value of X, analyzing complex literature or reciting the byzantine empire conquest as part of the job. Even a custodian position at the library requires a diploma. I understand custodians have to have knowledge on proper use and safe disposal of chemicals, but that stuff is not taught in high school.

We should have a system like Britain, where you get a GCSE in each subject. A student can get a GCSE in an electricians class or marketing class and work at a related field. High school should have more career-related classes. I do support graduation requirements being the bare minimum to tell employers you can work compose a professional email, understand basic math like I described above, etc.

We should also stop telling students that everyone should go to college, or college is the only way to achieve economic success. Encourage apprenticeships, vocational schools, etc. Get students thinking about different career options and maybe have them try out different careers so they will have a better idea about what they want to do.
Katie, everybody has a different idea about what should be in public education's curriculum. Your personal idea is no better than anyone else's personal idea about it.

I'm gonna give you the correct answer about what should be in a school's curriculum: any significant field of study that keeps future doors open for the student.

I know that's vague. But critical thinking skills keep doors open. As a middle school educator for 33 years, most of the students I taught or administered did NOT become what they intended to become. Middle and high school kids rarely know what they want to do when they get to adulthood. Keep the possibilities open.

As an educator, I don't feel that every student should go to college. But I do feel that upon graduation, every student should have what's needed to go to college, if they wish.

Your theory about education is to close doors.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
31,038 posts, read 13,150,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
Algebra isn't hard. But I think high schools should offer some free tutoring for kids who can't quite grasp it.
I agree. Unfortunately, some of the difficulty is because of parents. Although I taught science, I can't tell you how often I would have a girl student who would say (usually giggling at the time), "I can't do science. And my mother said she could never do science either".

I have to admit that I felt that I couldn't do statistics in college. Later I realized that I could have done it. I might have needed a tutor. But I could have done it.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
31,038 posts, read 13,150,720 times
Reputation: 23717
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie1215 View Post
This is why we should have tracking for kids who want to go to college and who want to take a different path. I personally hate how school push the “everyone should go to college” or “you need to go to college to be successful” mentality. Not everyone should go to college. My high school had a “college office” where it was all about college but they never mentioned vocational schools, apprenticeships, vocational rehabilitation and other job training. It should be the “college and career office” and provide actual career and vocational information.
Sure Katie, because a 12 year old will always have the best judgement to decide what they want to be for the rest of their lives.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:54 AM
 
57 posts, read 14,084 times
Reputation: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
OK, show me how you solve it without using a letter or symbol to stand in for the selling price.
No problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Your projected manufacturing cost is $225. Your organization requires a 45% minimum gross margin. What, then, will be the minimum sales price for this product to achieve the required minimum gross margin?
Read my attachment. Honestly, questions like that often show up on 4th grade final exam in East Asian schools.
Attached Thumbnails
Abstract algebra shouldn’t be a requirement for high school graduation-simple-math.png  
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:56 AM
 
13,287 posts, read 10,991,346 times
Reputation: 10554
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie1215 View Post
Many jobs require a high school diploma, even if abstract algebra or analyzing complex literature is not part of the job. Yet abstract algebra and advanced mathematics is often a requirement for a diploma. Some students will never understand it no matter what, even with intensive tutoring. I do think all students should learn statistical algebra, like mortgages, finance, budgeting, percentages, loans, compounding interest, graphs, fractions, data plots, etc. Abstract algebra should be optional. I am referring to solving equations like 2(x2-1)+3x(x+ 4) or finding the function or the value of X.

I checked the requirements for a security position in my county’s library system. The security job duties patrolling the library, providing exceptional customer service, aiding sick and injured people, confronting and de-escalating problems and informing departments on fire/safety issues. This job requires a high school diploma and the posting said some college preferred, even though you won't be finding the value of X, analyzing complex literature or reciting the byzantine empire conquest as part of the job. Even a custodian position at the library requires a diploma. I understand custodians have to have knowledge on proper use and safe disposal of chemicals, but that stuff is not taught in high school.

We should have a system like Britain, where you get a GCSE in each subject. A student can get a GCSE in an electricians class or marketing class and work at a related field. High school should have more career-related classes. I do support graduation requirements being the bare minimum to tell employers you can work compose a professional email, understand basic math like I described above, etc.

We should also stop telling students that everyone should go to college, or college is the only way to achieve economic success. Encourage apprenticeships, vocational schools, etc. Get students thinking about different career options and maybe have them try out different careers so they will have a better idea about what they want to do.
It appears that you don’t know what the term “abstract algebra” means ( and many others on here didn’t even google it.)

I highly doubt any public high schools are requiring abstract algebra. Usually you need only Algebra 1 and 2.

As to whether it should be required for school is up to debate, but suffice it to say that it is much more likely a job will require a student to do algebra than it is that a job will require a student to read fictional literature, yet I would guess most of you don’t find it odd for schools to require that ( or do you? )
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:12 AM
 
57 posts, read 14,084 times
Reputation: 69

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP7nW_hKB7I
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:13 AM
 
8,641 posts, read 3,997,303 times
Reputation: 24350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Shadow View Post
No problem.


Read my attachment. Honestly, questions like that often show up on 4th grade final exam in East Asian schools.
OK, that's the long way round, but I admit you did solve it without using an algebraic substitution.


Here's how I solve it. 3 lines. One calculation.

S = selling price


(1-0.55)S = 225
0.45S = 225
S = 225/0.45 = 409.09


Which is actually easier to do, ten lines of calculation, or three lines of manipulation?


Anyway, someone who is capable of doing the calculation you showed in fourth grade, will have no trouble mastering algebra in eighth grade, so the discussion really isn't about that person, is it?


What we're talking about here, is whether a high school diploma should mean that a person has mastered certain subject matter that is generally regarded as necessary for a minimally-educated person - or whether it should simply signify that someone has entered a building for 180 days x 12 years, while being allowed to skip past any subject matter they decide they "just can't do".
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