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Old 01-16-2020, 08:15 AM
 
19,778 posts, read 18,060,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MI-Roger View Post
And then there are the head scratchers. Your son's best friend's experience may be one of these.

  • Our youngest achieved a 4.0 GPA during the four year pursuit of his Computer Science degree.
  • He worked five years as a Software Engineer for IBM
  • His job was off-shored to India in the midst of the Great Recession. He was given the choice to follow his job, or take a lay-off with Severance Package.
  • He elected the Severance Package which paid for two years of additional schooling. He chose Harvard's two year Pre-Med program via their on-campus Extension School.
  • While at Harvard he moon-lighted doing bio-infometric work for Harvard and MIT researchers.
  • During the summer break he worked in a Neurobiology Lab at Stanford University doing research.
  • After completing the Harvard Pre-Med program with a 4.0 GPA he accepted a job at Yale University in a Neurobiology Lab. There he maintained the Lab's computer systems in addition to performing research. He felt this experience would improve his resume for Med School applications. He spent three years at Yale.
  • Between the Harvard moon-lighting, the summer at Stanford, and the three years at Yale, he was a named contributor to 5 or 6 published research papers.
  • He took the MCAT exam during his third year at Yale and achieved a 99th percentile score.
  • He submitted applications to a number of Med Schools. This included most of the top 10 Med Schools as well as a variety of schools closer to his S-E Michigan roots.
  • He was interviewed by +/- half of the top 10 Schools, and all but one of the other Med Schools.
  • One of the more local Med Schools was a recently chartered Med School. They did not yet have their full Accreditation from the AMA. He would have been part of only their fourth admitted class.
  • He did not receive an interview from this school!

One of his "Safety Schools", which had a distinct geographic advantage over the highly ranked schools, passed on interviewing. Like I said, there are head-scratchers out there.
Noting the bioinformatics angle, which as you know is huge, not to mention the legit research and high MCAT.......that is a head scratcher.

I will say the local school that was working on accreditation likely didn't offer him because they thought he'd decline. My son lacked the depth of research your boy had, my son was a 20yo MS-1, he had a 4.0 in a triple major, 40 and 41 MCAT (might have been 39 and 40) and some research blah, blah, blah. Ultimately he was accepted at schools like Harvard, Washington Univ. (St. louis) and Stanford and several other great rep. schools but declined at Arkansas and he never even heard a response from Creighton.

His undergrad advisor - who is expert at getting kids into medical schools - told my kid not to worry telling him that the lower tier medical schools generally pass on "A+" candidates because they know there is little chance.
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Old 01-16-2020, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,751 posts, read 10,373,730 times
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Is being a doctor still one of the most coveted goals for a kid?

I think “a kid being a doctor is still one of the most coveted goals for many parents,” particularly in some cultures. I have HS/college kids and can’t believe the amount of times I hear that their friends’ parents are “making their kids do pre-med/medical school.”

We are in a school district filled with high-achievers - plenty of parents are top DR/surgeons and they push their kids to follow the exact same path that they did. The kids are groomed from kindergarten “to be a doctor.” My D was in a top natl youth orchestra, and I believe the majority of kids are there because their parents said “playing an instrument looks better on med school apps.” I heard this many times from parents.

Same thing with all the summer university research projects these kids (starting in middle school!) are forced to pursue by their parents. They’re working in labs 24/7 for their entire summer break, while their friends play on the beach. “But it looks good on medical school apps.” I’ve had parents tell me they can’t believe I allow my kids to do sports “because medical schools, like University of Chicago, don’t care if they do sports.”

I’m not saying all kids are pushed toward medical school by their parents (I do have a cousin who had a lifelong dream/passion for it and now he’s a top surgeon) but a great many parents around me are really pushing their kids into it. I find that sad.

My daughter has the academic chops to be a DR (perfect SAT, GPA in all the “hard AP classes” yada, yada...), but she is on the fence about it. She doesn’t know if it’s “her calling” (and no one is pushing her to do it). She’ll be starting college next year (at one of those fancy schools all the pre-med students covet and can’t believe they didn’t get into) and she is an Engineering major. She is the only one in her HS of high-achievers who got accepted to this school, and she got there while enjoying her summers.

Many of her friends automatically assume she’s going to medical school merely because of her academic credentials. She definitely wants an advanced degree - but it could be engineering, medicine, research, law, business - who knows. She is seventeen.

She tests, writes and interviews well and her math abilities are in the stratosphere, so that opens a lot of doors. The engineering to medicine path is common, but her college also has an eng/business combo program that all the top IB/finance recruit from (I’m sure some can guess the school) and their starting salaries are unbelievable - beyond the realm of any medical profession. So if it were a purely $ and power issue, that particular path would be the “coveted goal for a kid.”

Or maybe she’ll be a starving musician. It will be interesting what path she takes.

Last edited by GoCUBS1; 01-16-2020 at 09:18 AM..
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Old 01-16-2020, 11:03 AM
 
19,778 posts, read 18,060,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
Is being a doctor still one of the most coveted goals for a kid?

I think “a kid being a doctor is still one of the most coveted goals for many parents,” particularly in some cultures. I have HS/college kids and can’t believe the amount of times I hear that their friends’ parents are “making their kids do pre-med/medical school.”

We are in a school district filled with high-achievers - plenty of parents are top DR/surgeons and they push their kids to follow the exact same path that they did. The kids are groomed from kindergarten “to be a doctor.” My D was in a top natl youth orchestra, and I believe the majority of kids are there because their parents said “playing an instrument looks better on med school apps.” I heard this many times from parents.

Same thing with all the summer university research projects these kids (starting in middle school!) are forced to pursue by their parents. They’re working in labs 24/7 for their entire summer break, while their friends play on the beach. “But it looks good on medical school apps.” I’ve had parents tell me they can’t believe I allow my kids to do sports “because medical schools, like University of Chicago, don’t care if they do sports.”

I’m not saying all kids are pushed toward medical school by their parents (I do have a cousin who had a lifelong dream/passion for it and now he’s a top surgeon) but a great many parents around me are really pushing their kids into it. I find that sad.

My daughter has the academic chops to be a DR (perfect SAT, GPA in all the “hard AP classes” yada, yada...), but she is on the fence about it. She doesn’t know if it’s “her calling” (and no one is pushing her to do it). She’ll be starting college next year (at one of those fancy schools all the pre-med students covet and can’t believe they didn’t get into) and she is an Engineering major. She is the only one in her HS of high-achievers who got accepted to this school, and she got there while enjoying her summers.

Many of her friends automatically assume she’s going to medical school merely because of her academic credentials. She definitely wants an advanced degree - but it could be engineering, medicine, research, law, business - who knows. She is seventeen.

She tests, writes and interviews well and her math abilities are in the stratosphere, so that opens a lot of doors. The engineering to medicine path is common, but her college also has an eng/business combo program that all the top IB/finance recruit from (I’m sure some can guess the school) and their starting salaries are unbelievable - beyond the realm of any medical profession. So if it were a purely $ and power issue, that particular path would be the “coveted goal for a kid.”

Or maybe she’ll be a starving musician. It will be interesting what path she takes.
Sorry I'm pressed for time so I'll probably bounce around a good bit. FWIIW my son is an MD resident and my daughter is an MS-1.


I'm with you in spirit. Parents who drive their kids towards the MD or DO paths are mostly nuts. A little better than 1 native born American in 400 is a doctor (1.1 million people in The US have MD or DO and/or US residency education...~25% of those were born overseas).

Problems:
1. The IQ angle. One study says MDs have the highest average IQ of any work cadre. Another says they are second behind physicists. For a good number of years a medical school up north used to track the IQ of each med. student the long running average was 127. From this perspective roughly one American in 20 would have an honest shot.

2. Academic performance. Few people have the drive and force of will and again IQ to meet the undergraduate classroom demands + MCAT score required to have a real shot at medical school.

3. Drudgery.....by the time they are done both my kids will have significantly sacrificed their 20s pursuing medicine, my son for certain will be in his mid 30s before his first staff position.....similar for everyone studying medicine.

4. Most people who could do it want to do something else. That's just real life.

Given all that driving a kid towards medicine would be a mistake in most circumstances.

___________________

Our son knew he wanted to be a doc. early and we supported him.
Our daughter wanted to be a doc. and then she decided engineering would be better. She graduated with two engineering degrees and along the way decided to take the MCAT. Long story short all that and an "off" year taking a bunch of chemistry and biology etc. she then entered medical school.

__________________

Engineering is probably the best medical school, "hedge" degree path. That said I'd be careful with the thinking that engineering is a common means or clean path to to med. school. My DD did it but only with a significant amount of extra effort and cost. It seems that roughly 4% of current medical school students have engineering degrees. My DD's class is ~4.5% engineers.

Also if my kids were here they'd suggest assuming your kiddo wants to keep the medical lane open during college to take Ochem 1 and 2 before taking the MCAT.

_________________

Also could you expound a bit on the finance vs. medical pay point you made above?


Best of luck to your daughter..................doesn't sound like she needs it, however.
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Old 01-20-2020, 06:00 PM
 
9,329 posts, read 4,138,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertFisher View Post
My wife demands that one of our kids become a doctor, regardless of their interest. Or I should say she attempts to nurture their interest in this field.

I think this is primarily due to the conventional thinking that doctors are one of the best professions. Is that conventional thinking still true on the eve of 2020?
I imagine the most coveted goal these days is to be Mark Zuckerberg. Or, at least, Zuckerberg before his problems with the government.

The medical profession was once favored because it was a solid, middle-class profession with a middle-class salary. That idea seems to have been discarded, replaced by an idea of a doctor being rich. I think your wife might do better just to encourage an interest in science, generally (gifts of books, chemistry sets, etc.), and let the kids find their own paths.
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,851 posts, read 5,860,814 times
Reputation: 11467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarallel View Post
I imagine the most coveted goal these days is to be Mark Zuckerberg. Or, at least, Zuckerberg before his problems with the government.

The medical profession was once favored because it was a solid, middle-class profession with a middle-class salary. That idea seems to have been discarded, replaced by an idea of a doctor being rich. I think your wife might do better just to encourage an interest in science, generally (gifts of books, chemistry sets, etc.), and let the kids find their own paths.
Many parents would still covet their children become doctors over Mark Zuckerberg. Being a doctor, especially in many cultures, is more prestigious because it represents both prestige and the elite intellectual ability. That is why in many cultures, parents would wish for their children to become doctors over athletes, entertainers, or even billionaire CEOs (all who make significantly more than doctors).

That is a generalization, but I am a MD, and my parents (2nd generation Polish) were elated when I got into medical school. They didn’t overly push me to go into medicine, but they definitely wanted me to. I guarantee that they were more excited about me pursuing medicine than be a Mark Zuckerberg (or his equivalent in the 90s-2000s).

Last edited by personone; 02-08-2020 at 06:43 PM..
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Old 02-09-2020, 06:26 AM
 
37,593 posts, read 45,960,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertFisher View Post
My wife demands that one of our kids become a doctor, regardless of their interest. Or I should say she attempts to nurture their interest in this field.

I think this is primarily due to the conventional thinking that doctors are one of the best professions.

Is that conventional thinking still true on the eve of 2020?
What a weird question.
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Old 02-12-2020, 08:28 PM
 
377 posts, read 381,992 times
Reputation: 1063
I was on the Johns Hopkins SOM admissions committee for 4 years. At that time we accepted approx 200-230 students for a class of 120. Our acceptance rate during the time I was there was around 4-5%

If we wanted to, we could have had 98th percentile MCATs and perfect 4.0 GPAs fill the entire class, but we made a conscious effort to avoid doing that.

One key distinction that separated successful applicants from unsuccessful was not GPA/MCAT but instead letters of rec.

For our school, letters of rec made a huge difference. Getting a mediocre LOR from an organic chem professor would not get you past the screening stage for interview decisions. Glowing letters from professors who know the applicant VERY well were necessary.

Also we pay special attention to extracurriculars. We were more likely to accept an NCAA division 1 athlete with zero other extracurriculars rather than somebody with 30 different clubs on their CV with no real distinction.
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Old 02-12-2020, 08:46 PM
 
377 posts, read 381,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
His undergrad advisor - who is expert at getting kids into medical schools - told my kid not to worry telling him that the lower tier medical schools generally pass on "A+" candidates because they know there is little chance.
Undergrad premed advisors are mostly hacks when it comes to advising premeds -- they never applied to med school, never attended med school, and never graduated from med school.

I know many med students at my program who were told by their premed "advisors" that they shouldn't apply to top tier med programs because they wouldn't be competitive. These premed advisors never bothered to ask us on the admissions committee about what we actually look for.
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Old 02-13-2020, 10:03 AM
 
19,778 posts, read 18,060,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by platon20 View Post
Undergrad premed advisors are mostly hacks when it comes to advising premeds -- they never applied to med school, never attended med school, and never graduated from med school.

I know many med students at my program who were told by their premed "advisors" that they shouldn't apply to top tier med programs because they wouldn't be competitive. These premed advisors never bothered to ask us on the admissions committee about what we actually look for.
Maybe most are hacks. I'd grade my son's undergraduate medical track advising as spectacular - far more importantly so would my son.

My daughter's undergrad medical track advising was definitely lower quality, being an engineering student was part of it, but still solid at a different institution FWIIW.

__________________

Also there's a POV issue in play. You were looking outward from a position of power from within one of the several greatest medical institutions on Earth. And I'll take you at your word that your committee wanted more "less competitive" students relative to GPA and MCAT scores. However, reality is JHUSM has demanded very high MCAT and GPA averages for decades. Like it or not rational people hedge........a student sporting a 505 and 3.65 isn't a statistically strong candidate for you old school so few apply.
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:18 PM
 
7,321 posts, read 4,115,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertFisher View Post
My wife demands that one of our kids become a doctor, regardless of their interest. Or I should say she attempts to nurture their interest in this field.

I think this is primarily due to the conventional thinking that doctors are one of the best professions.

Is that conventional thinking still true on the eve of 2020?
My husband attended an ivy league college. He graduated first in his major and was accepted and given a full ride to every ivy league graduate program in his area of study. He started at Yale. He hated Yale and changed his career plans. He left in six weeks later.

Well, his competitive parents had bragged to everyone about their brilliant son. When he left Yale, they were super-embarrassed. They took it out on him. This friction ruined their relationship forever.

The issue isn't about doctors or best professions. The REAL issue is your relationship with your children.

Not for nothing, NYC Fortune 500 senior management earn as much or more than doctors.
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