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Old 02-13-2020, 05:56 PM
 
19,932 posts, read 18,224,907 times
Reputation: 17362

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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
My husband attended an ivy league college. He graduated first in his major and was accepted and given a full ride to every ivy league graduate program in his area of study. He started at Yale. He hated Yale and changed his career plans. He left in six weeks later.

Well, his competitive parents had bragged to everyone about their brilliant son. When he left Yale, they were super-embarrassed. They took it out on him. This friction ruined their relationship forever.

The issue isn't about doctors or best professions. The REAL issue is your relationship with your children.

Not for nothing, NYC Fortune 500 senior management earn as much or more than doctors.
Sure but by the numbers there are 15,000 or 20,000 legit senior managers within the Fortune 500. There are ~900,000 doctors.
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:18 PM
 
Location: los angeles county
1,763 posts, read 2,052,439 times
Reputation: 1877
Quote:
Originally Posted by platon20 View Post
Getting a mediocre LOR from an organic chem professor would not get you past the screening stage for interview decisions. Glowing letters from professors who know the applicant VERY well were necessary.


Letters of rec are so silly from a regular class professor

If you realize what they do in ochem and how the class is taught, what could you possibly do in that class to get a "glowing rec" from the professor?

what... "student asks lots of questions and shows inquisitiveness"?


When I was at berkeley, the ochem TA would have written the letter for the professor to sign off on. If you were an azzkisser TA's pet, you would have a glowing LOR to go with the A letter grade.
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Old 02-14-2020, 06:57 AM
 
7,418 posts, read 4,201,860 times
Reputation: 16890
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Sure but by the numbers there are 15,000 or 20,000 legit senior managers within the Fortune 500. There are ~900,000 doctors.
You need only one job. Just one.

If you are suited for a profession, you'll do well regardless of the competition.

With your line of thinking, Julia Child shouldn't had wrote French cookbooks, because she could have made more money as a doctor. Before she wrote Italian cookbooks. Marcella Hazan was a chemist. Sure if she remained a chemist, she would have made more money - but money isn't everything.


If you push your child into a career, like the OP's wife, what is the overarching message?

It's that you don't trust your children to make one of biggest decisions of their life.
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:20 AM
 
Location: S-E Michigan
4,287 posts, read 5,955,698 times
Reputation: 10909
Quote:
Originally Posted by platon20 View Post
I know many med students at my program who were told by their premed "advisors" that they shouldn't apply to top tier med programs because they wouldn't be competitive. These premed advisors never bothered to ask us on the admissions committee about what we actually look for.
When applying to Engineering Schools while a HS Senior, I needed the School Guidance Dept to provide GPA, Test Scores, and other information on my applications. The Advisor/Counselor saw one of the schools on my list, a top ranked Engineering program, and said, "You will never get in that school. We had a student accepted there last year."

I didn't flinch with my request for submitting an application to that school but thought to myself "WTH does that matter?"

BTW - the student who was accepted from the Class before me dropped out of the highly ranked Engineering School during his third year. I was accepted by that same School, enrolled there, and graduated on schedule.

I learned a lot about HS Guidance Counselors in that 10 second comment!
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Old 02-15-2020, 08:20 AM
 
377 posts, read 384,756 times
Reputation: 1063
Quote:
Originally Posted by oh come on! View Post
Letters of rec are so silly from a regular class professor

If you realize what they do in ochem and how the class is taught, what could you possibly do in that class to get a "glowing rec" from the professor?

what... "student asks lots of questions and shows inquisitiveness"?


When I was at berkeley, the ochem TA would have written the letter for the professor to sign off on. If you were an azzkisser TA's pet, you would have a glowing LOR to go with the A letter grade.
If all you do is sit in the class and ask questions then there's virtually zero chance of getting a great LOR

You gotta meet with the professor on a regular basis outside the classroom, in the lab for example.

This is one advantage that smaller colleges have over larger ones -- it's a lot harder to get to know a professor if you have 5000 premeds all clamoring for attention and research time.
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Old 02-15-2020, 08:37 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,683 posts, read 28,791,182 times
Reputation: 25269
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Not for nothing, NYC Fortune 500 senior management earn as much or more than doctors.
And a large number of them went to Ivy League or other highly selective schools.
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Old 02-15-2020, 06:18 PM
 
377 posts, read 384,756 times
Reputation: 1063
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Sure but by the numbers there are 15,000 or 20,000 legit senior managers within the Fortune 500. There are ~900,000 doctors.
I agree with EDS, it's an apples vs oranges comparison.

Would you advise your child that being an owner of a 50 employee tech company is not a great accomplishment because he's not the CEO of Amazon?
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Old 02-20-2020, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,751 posts, read 10,398,078 times
Reputation: 7010
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Sorry I'm pressed for time so I'll probably bounce around a good bit. FWIIW my son is an MD resident and my daughter is an MS-1.


I'm with you in spirit. Parents who drive their kids towards the MD or DO paths are mostly nuts. A little better than 1 native born American in 400 is a doctor (1.1 million people in The US have MD or DO and/or US residency education...~25% of those were born overseas).

Problems:
1. The IQ angle. One study says MDs have the highest average IQ of any work cadre. Another says they are second behind physicists. For a good number of years a medical school up north used to track the IQ of each med. student the long running average was 127. From this perspective roughly one American in 20 would have an honest shot.

2. Academic performance. Few people have the drive and force of will and again IQ to meet the undergraduate classroom demands + MCAT score required to have a real shot at medical school.

3. Drudgery.....by the time they are done both my kids will have significantly sacrificed their 20s pursuing medicine, my son for certain will be in his mid 30s before his first staff position.....similar for everyone studying medicine.

4. Most people who could do it want to do something else. That's just real life.

Given all that driving a kid towards medicine would be a mistake in most circumstances.

___________________

Our son knew he wanted to be a doc. early and we supported him.
Our daughter wanted to be a doc. and then she decided engineering would be better. She graduated with two engineering degrees and along the way decided to take the MCAT. Long story short all that and an "off" year taking a bunch of chemistry and biology etc. she then entered medical school.

__________________

Engineering is probably the best medical school, "hedge" degree path. That said I'd be careful with the thinking that engineering is a common means or clean path to to med. school. My DD did it but only with a significant amount of extra effort and cost. It seems that roughly 4% of current medical school students have engineering degrees. My DD's class is ~4.5% engineers.

Also if my kids were here they'd suggest assuming your kiddo wants to keep the medical lane open during college to take Ochem 1 and 2 before taking the MCAT.

_________________

Also could you expound a bit on the finance vs. medical pay point you made above?


Best of luck to your daughter..................doesn't sound like she needs it, however.
Thanks so much... very informative post.

I don’t really think my D will go the med school route. She just seems more excited about engineering combined with some other areas (e.g. Math, Chem, Physics). Lately, she has mentioned Business also (she loves her Econ course). We’ll see...

I mentioned the engineering to med school path because this is a specific path we’ve seen when touring schools, talking to grads, etc.

E.g. I think the University of Illinois College of Medicine was specifically designed for engineering students to go into medicine. I think an engineering degree may be required for admissions to this medical school - not sure.

Other schools we looked at had some combo engineering/science degrees they advertised as prep for med school (E.g. Northwestern had an integrated science degree). Other engineering schools advertised a “Med School Advising Office” (I think Wisconsin, Harvard, and Columbia - not sure) to help students navigate the path from engineering degree to med school.

I can’t remember all the details - we toured A LOT of schools - and I sometimes get them mixed up. I’d have to review all their websites. But I definitely got the impression there were enough students pursuing the engineering to med school path, so universities offered support in this area...
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:00 AM
 
19,932 posts, read 18,224,907 times
Reputation: 17362
Quote:
Originally Posted by platon20 View Post
I agree with EDS, it's an apples vs oranges comparison.

Would you advise your child that being an owner of a 50 employee tech company is not a great accomplishment because he's not the CEO of Amazon?
Missed this earlier. Excellent point.
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Old 02-21-2020, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,296 posts, read 120,983,399 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
Thanks so much... very informative post.

I don’t really think my D will go the med school route. She just seems more excited about engineering combined with some other areas (e.g. Math, Chem, Physics). Lately, she has mentioned Business also (she loves her Econ course). We’ll see...

I mentioned the engineering to med school path because this is a specific path we’ve seen when touring schools, talking to grads, etc.

E.g. I think the University of Illinois College of Medicine was specifically designed for engineering students to go into medicine. I think an engineering degree may be required for admissions to this medical school - not sure.

Other schools we looked at had some combo engineering/science degrees they advertised as prep for med school (E.g. Northwestern had an integrated science degree). Other engineering schools advertised a “Med School Advising Office” (I think Wisconsin, Harvard, and Columbia - not sure) to help students navigate the path from engineering degree to med school.

I can’t remember all the details - we toured A LOT of schools - and I sometimes get them mixed up. I’d have to review all their websites. But I definitely got the impression there were enough students pursuing the engineering to med school path, so universities offered support in this area...
You may be talking about this place: https://medicine.illinois.edu/

It's in Champaign, described on the website as a place with few distractions. My husband's advisor said the same thing, although a little more realistically-"Nothing to do here. Makes it easier to get your work done". (I lived in Champaign for 7 years. I'd agree.) Certainly there are no outdoor distractions, no special hiking, rafting, etc. If you're into biking you might get distracted. If you're into drinking you can get very distracted. Ditto pizza.

You do not have to have an engineering degree to get in. "Applicants must have graduated from an accredited college or university prior to matriculation. No single major is preferred." There are some courses you have to have taken.
https://medicine.illinois.edu/admiss...ore-you-apply/
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