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Old 04-12-2020, 10:24 AM
 
9,576 posts, read 7,342,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
The "cohort" I am referring to is an entire birth cohort. As I have stated in many ways, the top <1% of each birth cohort is capable of becoming either a doctor or a Google software engineer.

The cohort, as I am using the term, is not confined to any profession.
It's similar to the Ivy's trying to defend "their brand". Most people who are bright enough to get into Harvard, Brown, Yale, Dartmouth, Cornell, Princeton, Penn and Columbia, could have probably gone to PoDunk U and have been just as successful, of course the Ivy's don't want to hear that. It's not the school, it's the person!

Sure the connections made at those places are so-called "priceless", but the brilliance of the students would have been there regardless of the school or maybe even no school at all. Did both Gates and Zuckerberg need to go to Harvard (I know both didn't graduate) to become who they are today, probably not, could both have gotten into medical school, if they wanted and became physicians, probably.

I knew somebody while working down in Antarctica 12 years ago, he was our Network Engineer and came from Raytheon, worked in San Diego and lived on a boat. Brilliant guy, went to Brandeis for his computer science degree and loved IT stuff. He was a big outdoorsey type and climbed Aconcagua, Denali, Kilimanjaro, Mt. Elbrus and Puncak Jaya/ Mt. Carstensz.

While down there, he was the lead of our GSAR (Glacier Search and Rescue) Team and on our Trauma Team. He fell in love with medicine, especially emergency medicine in remote places. After a couple of years working down there, where he met his future wife (he has two daughters now), he decided to go back to school to get his prerequisites and eventually got his PA degree and works as a PA in emergency medicine in Arizona where he lives.

Could he have gone to medical school, sure, but he was already in his mid-to-late 30's at that time and decided the PA route was best for him. Could we have gone into medicine instead of IT from the start, most definitely.
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Old 04-12-2020, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,851 posts, read 5,883,118 times
Reputation: 11467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
You shouldn't choose a career based on what your parents want. You will be doing the work, not them.

Do what you like.
Absolutely. No argument or disagreement with that. That was probably the first principle to come out of this thread within the first couple of posts (and almost everyone agrees with this, including the OP who already knew this before writing the post).

I'm discussing more prestige/ general perception of careers that parents hope for. I think things have changed a lot over the years, and as generations shift and given some of the current realities of medicine, I don't think that is quite as universally prestigious as it once was. However, I still think it is a "coveted goal" (using words from the thread title) for many parents. Most parents will support their kids in whatever they choose to do, but I think their kids being a medical doctor is one that is near the top for parents "wishes."

I say this as a physician. My parents didn't push me to go into medicine, but when I started expressing interest in that path during high school, I remember how elated they were and how often they would tell family and friends. This ramped up even more through college, when I got into medical school, graduated from medical school, until this very day (they are always mentioning their son is "a doctor."). Of course now that I have transitioned into hospital administration/ medical director role (and am no longer practicing tradional clinical medicine), they don't know what to think LOL. But they are still proud and supportive and still always tell people I'm a doctor.

The point being, that I could tell there was some extra pride in being a doctor from my parents' perspective. I have other siblings and they are very supportive of their careers. But it seems like they "brag" a little bit more about me being a doctor. My parents are also second generation Polish, so culturally being a doctor is one of those professions that parents somewhat secretly covet for their children.

Again, "doing what you like," is the most important thing, but I was discussing more of the jobs that many parents covet for their kids. This is changing. I think my generation (Millenials) will hold less veneration for doctors as a career. Many will still love their kids to go into it, but I don't think it holds the same prestige as baby boomer or previous generations.
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Old 04-12-2020, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
13,561 posts, read 10,364,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Average US doctor pay is right at $300K. Enterprise software on average pays a lot less than that.
Well, that's after many many years of education and training, and likely med school debt of six figures. If you're a superstar in SW sales you can do quite well.
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Old 04-12-2020, 09:47 PM
 
19,804 posts, read 18,110,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
Well, that's after many many years of education and training, and likely med school debt of six figures. If you're a superstar in SW sales you can do quite well.
Sure no question rockstar sales people do very well financially.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:02 PM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
8,684 posts, read 3,879,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertFisher View Post
My wife demands that one of our kids become a doctor, regardless of their interest. Or I should say she attempts to nurture their interest in this field.

I think this is primarily due to the conventional thinking that doctors are one of the best professions.

Is that conventional thinking still true on the eve of 2020?
Though I don't have kids, conventional thinking in re: education is promoting a love of learning - not choosing a profession for your kids. It's common sense we tend to excel at what we enjoy; I can't imagine a kid excelling at anything if he/she has a parent hovering making demands or career choices for him/her.
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Old 04-13-2020, 09:35 AM
 
19,804 posts, read 18,110,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
The "cohort" I am referring to is an entire birth cohort. As I have stated in many ways, the top <1% of each birth cohort is capable of becoming either a doctor or a Google software engineer.

The cohort, as I am using the term, is not confined to any profession.

Software development is a very loosely defined "profession" that covers many people of varying skills and abilities. Medicine is a much more tightly controlled profession and the average physician is more talented than the average software engineer for that reason. However the information and healthcare industries cover a wide range of people, and the upper echelons of both are comparable.

If you define the upper echelon of healthcare as a medical specialist, then you should define the upper echelon of the information industry as a VP or CTO at a large tech company. That is how rare those people are.

If you define the upper echelon of healthcare as all physicians, then you should define the upper echelon of the information industry as software engineers at Silicon Valley firms that pay much higher than the industry average, the so-called FAANG companies.

The entire profession, if you can call it that, of software development is huge with many more people than medicine. That means the quality of its average member will be lower. So comparing a huge, loosely-defined group of people with a small, tightly-controlled group of people is apples and oranges.

The only meaningful way to compare healthcare and information careers is to compare the prospects for people from the same global birth year cohort, which in the case of medicine requires a cohort that is the top <1%. The information industry analogue for a medical doctor is a FAANG engineer.

Broadly anyway you are arguing the point I made up thread when one poster compared Google Software Engineers to doctors/young doctors vis a vis pay.

A few points:
1. The numbers he implied and the related conclusion were wrong.
2. Plus his comparison was unfair as he set the very top of software engineering pay against "doctors".
3. Then he did it again by comparing a tiny slice of high earning sales people with doctors.

So let's stipulate that comparing outliers/right side edge of the cure types to the average of another cadre is generally faulty. Although your point that "software engineer" is an ill defined and oft misapplied term must be considered.

I think you are underestimating the number of medical specialists. Even excluding internal medicine docs. as specialists, FWIIW I believe they are specialists, there are roughly three hundred thousand practicing medical specialists in The US. There are not three hundred thousand big company IT VPs, CIOs etc. FWIIW my wife is CIO of a fairly large insurance company.


I agree with your notion that doctors and top software engineers are more or less the same people from an ability perspective but with different interests.


I disagree with your point that anything short of deep dive, tight time horizon/age specific analysis lacks enough resolution per our discussion. We aren't posing a research effort for peer review and or publication here. We are gleaning trends from widely available and yet statistically satisfying data.
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Old 04-13-2020, 10:06 AM
 
19,804 posts, read 18,110,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
Though I don't have kids, conventional thinking in re: education is promoting a love of learning - not choosing a profession for your kids. It's common sense we tend to excel at what we enjoy; I can't imagine a kid excelling at anything if he/she has a parent hovering making demands or career choices for him/her.
"Conventional wisdom" vis a vis education in The US is getting us killed vs. much of the world.

My wife and I took a somewhat softer approach than the people below but our kids knew the academic expectations in our house and they were more or less make As in every single class you take. If you don't there must to be a reason not an excuse. Fast forward my kids are both killing it as young adults.

Some friends have two daughters two years apart in age. After school both kids came home and had some unwind time. Then they went to their desk, both desks in a hallway facing opposite walls. With reasonable bath, water, food, stretching breaks, and time for sports practices (both girls were D-1 athletes in college) they'd work on homework and studies until they were done. Until the kids were in about 6th all homework was checked by a parent, wrong answers were marked as such and redone. Most TV and nearly all video games etc. were weekend only affairs. And the expectation was make As always.

Fast forward both are now in their mid-20s, whip smart, impressive degrees on the wall, well adjusted, conversational........one is an engineer the other is working on a microbiology Ph.D.

In all the above cases the expectation was to more or less dominate in the classroom with little steering toward particular careers.

Ergo I believe pressing/helping kids do very well in school is nearly imperative driving them towards specific vocations is a mistake.
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Old 04-13-2020, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
13,561 posts, read 10,364,797 times
Reputation: 8252
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Sure no question rockstar sales people do very well financially.
Point is, go into medicine because it's a calling and you love doing it - because the route to being a physician is long, winding and grueling. Don't do it for the money or prestige. I believe you have children who are in the field so you're pretty well versed on this, right?
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Old 04-13-2020, 03:10 PM
 
19,804 posts, read 18,110,313 times
Reputation: 17293
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
Point is, go into medicine because it's a calling and you love doing it - because the route to being a physician is long, winding and grueling. Don't do it for the money or prestige. I believe you have children who are in the field so you're pretty well versed on this, right?
Right my kids are an MS-1 and a PGY-3. By way of agreeing with you the physician track is way too long in years, too difficult both in terms of competition and baseline rigor, too likely to end in failure for most etc. etc........young people who head off in that direction should have a love for the craft or be prepared to hate the trip. Once there being a physician is no cake walk either.

That being said the money angle vs. other professions is fairly straightforward via bar napkin arithmatic.
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Old 04-13-2020, 10:44 PM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
8,684 posts, read 3,879,665 times
Reputation: 6028
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjseliga View Post
It's similar to the Ivy's trying to defend "their brand". Most people who are bright enough to get into Harvard, Brown, Yale, Dartmouth, Cornell, Princeton, Penn and Columbia, could have probably gone to PoDunk U and have been just as successful, of course the Ivy's don't want to hear that. It's not the school, it's the person!
Many companies won't even look at a candidate unless he/she graduated from an Ivy (and the difference in payscales, and even more importantly opportunity, is dramatically different); this is clear to anyone who has worked (or even interned in) the corporate world. When competition is fierce, it's the PoDunk U graduates you hear about who can't find a job and end up working retail or flipping burgers (because they probably shouldn't have bothered to get an MBA in an oversaturated market from a mediocre school in the first place).

That said, relative to the OP, it doesn't matter what is coveted; if the person isn't motivated by their own choices and/or abilities, they won't be successful (and probably not very happy either).
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