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Old 06-28-2020, 10:53 PM
 
25 posts, read 14,981 times
Reputation: 46

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I would pay my kid NOT to choose a MD path.

Being in constant contact with sick people, per the job character is not great for the next human being. Yes, someone has to do that but this is not a dream job. They work endless hours in germ filled offices, hospitals and breath that air, come contact with bodily fluids of all sorts.

With what we know about Covid now and though this lens about the air we breath, I definitely do not find the doctor's job to be an envy.

The suicide rate among doctors is gigantic and there are many reasons for it. Eventually
if one would be a doctor who heals through natural methods, herbs, diet and environmental choices . maybe. But regular pharma doctor who helps to quick fix the symptoms. No.
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:03 PM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
8,800 posts, read 3,962,122 times
Reputation: 6191
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasLawyer2000 View Post
Majoring in video games? I hope you're that lucky to have children who would do that. That's one of the largest and highest paying industries! Looks like you should STAY OUT of guiding them!
Too funny. What college offers a 'major in video games'?
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Old 06-29-2020, 04:02 PM
 
19,988 posts, read 18,286,486 times
Reputation: 17419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladio View Post
I would pay my kid NOT to choose a MD path.

Being in constant contact with sick people, per the job character is not great for the next human being. Yes, someone has to do that but this is not a dream job. They work endless hours in germ filled offices, hospitals and breath that air, come contact with bodily fluids of all sorts.

With what we know about Covid now and though this lens about the air we breath, I definitely do not find the doctor's job to be an envy.

The suicide rate among doctors is gigantic and there are many reasons for it. Eventually
if one would be a doctor who heals through natural methods, herbs, diet and environmental choices . maybe. But regular pharma doctor who helps to quick fix the symptoms. No.
So are you going to abstain from any upcoming Covid - 19 vaccine in favor or herbs and spices, maybe high dose vitamin C? If you ever have a heart attack or stroke are you going to Home Depot for help? Maybe the local vitamin shack? Come on.

When people play this silly card as you did I can't help but think about Medieval plague medicine men wearing those crazy duck looking masks filled with herbs and spices in efforts to ward of pneumonic plague......didn't work then either.

Here is some context vis a vis your gigantic suicide claim. For sure the suicide rates among MD trainees and female doctors are alarming.

https://www.registerednursing.org/su...es-profession/
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:36 PM
 
19,988 posts, read 18,286,486 times
Reputation: 17419
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTP2020 View Post
I work in a hospital and the majority of the residents I encounter are in their 30’s with thousands in loans. I don’t know if it’s worth it. My mother is a nurse and sounds like your wife. I think she secretly became a nurse because she wanted to be a doctor but didn’t think she was smart enough (although she’ll never admit that). She tried to push me into it but it was a disaster. A complete waste of my first two years of college. Every once and a while she’ll ask me if I’d consider going back to school to study medicine. Honestly, if I went back to school for anything I’d get the hell out of healthcare. I’d be working from the comfort of my home right now.
Not to be overbearing but in the interest of brevity......I'm a Ph.D economist. I'm also the dad of an MD, the FIL of an MD and my baby girl became an MS-2 today. MS-2 = second year medical school just in case.

I've been over the numbers a 1,000 ways from Sunday. Across the averages there is no better profession of any size in terms of remuneration all in that being an MD specialist. Being an MD GP is not far behind.

MDs with any level of financial understanding and willpower earn enough to repay substantial loans quickly. In other words getting hung up over ~$200-300K in loans when one will make 1.5, 2 or 3 $million every 10 years of working life is silly...........those are near minimum figures FWIIW.

______________

To my eye medicine isn't worth it for the bottom ~15 or so percent of medical school graduates. This cadre more or less kills itself getting through med. school and then many don't match into a residency at all and most who do are forced into what many would consider the least desirable residencies.
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Old 07-01-2020, 04:54 PM
 
9,576 posts, read 7,393,700 times
Reputation: 14004
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
MDs with any level of financial understanding and willpower earn enough to repay substantial loans quickly. In other words getting hung up over ~$200-300K in loans when one will make 1.5, 2 or 3 $million every 10 years of working life is silly...........those are near minimum figures FWIIW.
My older sister's boyfriend is a radiologist in central New Jersey, not sure if he also has a subspecialty under that, but he makes $450,000 a year. He's 51, both him and my sister are divorcees and have two kids each.

His ex-wife got a ton of money in the divorce, but he still makes great money and he and 4 or 5 other radiologists formed a radiology group 20 years ago, so when he retires and sells his part of the business he said he'll probably make another $5-7 million, not too bad!
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Old 07-01-2020, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,849 posts, read 6,224,585 times
Reputation: 12337
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Not to be overbearing but in the interest of brevity......I'm a Ph.D economist. I'm also the dad of an MD, the FIL of an MD and my baby girl became an MS-2 today. MS-2 = second year medical school just in case.

I've been over the numbers a 1,000 ways from Sunday. Across the averages there is no better profession of any size in terms of remuneration all in that being an MD specialist. Being an MD GP is not far behind.

MDs with any level of financial understanding and willpower earn enough to repay substantial loans quickly. In other words getting hung up over ~$200-300K in loans when one will make 1.5, 2 or 3 $million every 10 years of working life is silly...........those are near minimum figures FWIIW.

______________

To my eye medicine isn't worth it for the bottom ~15 or so percent of medical school graduates. This cadre more or less kills itself getting through med. school and then many don't match into a residency at all and most who do are forced into what many would consider the least desirable residencies.
My husband has been a surgeon for almost 20 years, and if you ask him if he would recommend medicine as a career to our children, he would say No, but it's because of the incredible emotional stress, liability and loss of autonomy/respect being a physician has brought about over the past generation. Also, depending on specialty, it can be a very physically demanding job, something many people overlook or aren't aware of.

However, I agree with everything EDS has said above about it.

1. It's as close to being a recession proof professional career as you can get.

2. If you make sound financial decisions, most physicians can pay off their loans within just a few years. A lot of it depends on specialty and income, but even a GP should be able to pay off $250K in loans in under 10 years. My husband paid our combined loan balance of about $150K off within 3 years of practice, starting with paying my balance from grad school first because the interest rate was very high (around 9.5%).

3. People constantly seem to use the example of "You could work on Wall Street and make more money". Well sure, but the percentage of people with MBA's, let alone Undergrad Finance degrees, who work on Wall street is infinitesimally small, whereas virtually anybody who finished an accredited cardiology fellowship in the U.S., for example, should be able to walk into their first practice making around $350K-$400K and sustain and grow that income over their entire career, assuming a good level of productivity. Now, comparing a mid career software engineer to a GP making in the $175K range......ok, that's probably a good example of the stress and training of becoming a physician likely not being worth it.

4.Work hours is something I haven't seen mentioned much, and the assumption is that all doctors work very long hours is not necessarily true once they are in practice (it's certainly true while they are in residency and fellowship). My husband, for example, works a regular 40-45 hours per week schedule and is only on call 1 week per every 7-8, but still has very high measures of productivity. It's just like any other job- some people (and employers/institutions) are efficient, and some are not. Sure, there are some doctors that work very long hours, but in my experience, it's often because they choose to. Moreover, the new generation of physicians being trained and in medical school have a much stronger desire for a good work/life balance than their predecessors.

Last edited by Texas Ag 93; 07-01-2020 at 08:22 PM..
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Old 07-02-2020, 09:05 AM
 
19,988 posts, read 18,286,486 times
Reputation: 17419
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjseliga View Post
My older sister's boyfriend is a radiologist in central New Jersey, not sure if he also has a subspecialty under that, but he makes $450,000 a year. He's 51, both him and my sister are divorcees and have two kids each.

His ex-wife got a ton of money in the divorce, but he still makes great money and he and 4 or 5 other radiologists formed a radiology group 20 years ago, so when he retires and sells his part of the business he said he'll probably make another $5-7 million, not too bad!
Small world. One of my best buds is a radiologist in DFW, 54yo and makes about what your guy makes. Anyway my buddy's eyesight is weakening...........derivative of all that he wants to segue into
volunteer GP work in Africa. He does not have a final number yet but his practice share is worth big $.
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Old 07-02-2020, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Shawnee-on-Delaware, PA
8,154 posts, read 7,539,713 times
Reputation: 16450
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
Too funny. What college offers a 'major in video games'?
Several colleges offer a major in game design, but I think "major in playing video games" is at this point still a bit of hyperbole.
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Old 07-02-2020, 09:54 AM
 
9,576 posts, read 7,393,700 times
Reputation: 14004
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Small world. One of my best buds is a radiologist in DFW, 54yo and makes about what your guy makes. Anyway my buddy's eyesight is weakening...........derivative of all that he wants to segue into
volunteer GP work in Africa. He does not have a final number yet but his practice share is worth big $.
Yeah, my sister's boyfriend is definitely getting to that point where he wants to move on as well. I don't know about his eyesight, it's probably not that great after looking at all those scans and imagines over his career!

He has mentioned jokingly, about moving to Costa Rica, live on the beach and volunteer in some clinic there and just enjoy life. I think for him, his burnout is mostly due to the near constant giving people "bad news" especially when it comes to a cancer diagnosis.

Also, he does believe that in the future that AI will probably become good enough to be able to read a scan and imagine and make the same diagnosis as a human does now, so the days of the radiologist might be numbered (I'm talking 10-20 years from now). His radiology group has steadily grown over the last 20 years since he started it with the 4 or 5 others, I think they have 35 people total in the group, with 18-20 of those being radiologists and the rest techs and admins. Because of the size, that's why his payout will be quite nice when he does decide to move on and sell his share of the business.

Last edited by cjseliga; 07-02-2020 at 10:03 AM..
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:57 PM
 
19,988 posts, read 18,286,486 times
Reputation: 17419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Ag 93 View Post
My husband has been a surgeon for almost 20 years, and if you ask him if he would recommend medicine as a career to our children, he would say No, but it's because of the incredible emotional stress, liability and loss of autonomy/respect being a physician has brought about over the past generation. Also, depending on specialty, it can be a very physically demanding job, something many people overlook or aren't aware of.

However, I agree with everything EDS has said above about it.

1. It's as close to being a recession proof professional career as you can get.

2. If you make sound financial decisions, most physicians can pay off their loans within just a few years. A lot of it depends on specialty and income, but even a GP should be able to pay off $250K in loans in under 10 years. My husband paid our combined loan balance of about $150K off within 3 years of practice, starting with paying my balance from grad school first because the interest rate was very high (around 9.5%).

3. People constantly seem to use the example of "You could work on Wall Street and make more money". Well sure, but the percentage of people with MBA's, let alone Undergrad Finance degrees, who work on Wall street is infinitesimally small, whereas virtually anybody who finished an accredited cardiology fellowship in the U.S., for example, should be able to walk into their first practice making around $350K-$400K and sustain and grow that income over their entire career, assuming a good level of productivity. Now, comparing a mid career software engineer to a GP making in the $175K range......ok, that's probably a good example of the stress and training of becoming a physician likely not being worth it.

4.Work hours is something I haven't seen mentioned much, and the assumption is that all doctors work very long hours is not necessarily true once they are in practice (it's certainly true while they are in residency and fellowship). My husband, for example, works a regular 40-45 hours per week schedule and is only on call 1 week per every 7-8, but still has very high measures of productivity. It's just like any other job- some people (and employers/institutions) are efficient, and some are not. Sure, there are some doctors that work very long hours, but in my experience, it's often because they choose to. Moreover, the new generation of physicians being trained and in medical school have a much stronger desire for a good work/life balance than their predecessors.

Great post.

I too get a belly laugh when some, as has occurred in this thread, throw out fully illogical comparisons. "I'd way rather my kid be president/tech titan/VC boss etc."
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