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Old 07-05-2020, 11:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
I wasn't speaking to how MD types see themselves or in re: 'running colleges', for that matter. My comment was relative to the thread i.e. becoming a doctor as a coveted goal by kids.

When a kid expresses interest in becoming a doctor, he is likely to receive positive encouragement (and then some) i.e. it's a respectable and lofty goal to have. Point being, however, if a child expresses an interest in business, law, or other fields which ultimately may prove to be more lucrative long-term, said child is likely to be met with (at least a few) eyerolls or discouragement. It's entirely based in re: perception and stereotype relative to 'greed' or 'immorality'. Hence, the 'black cowboy hat' analogy.
Ahh, that makes perfect sense. Thanks for the added detail.
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Old 07-05-2020, 01:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertFisher View Post
My wife demands that one of our kids become a doctor, regardless of their interest. Or I should say she attempts to nurture their interest in this field.

I think this is primarily due to the conventional thinking that doctors are one of the best professions.

Is that conventional thinking still true on the eve of 2020?
It is a rewarding profession where you help your fellow man, and get paid very well for it over the long run. In the short run, you struggle to get through and into schools, work ungodly hours for little pay, and build up huge debt which can take decades to pay off.

Now with Obamacare ( if it survives), I'd say potential MD's should consider something else. It mandates a significantly reduced pay structure and mandates maximum time requirements that many would find off putting.

My Dads long term MD was old school and use to ask a lot of questions, and listen to his patients stories, trying to glean what may be wrong with them.
But once Obamacare kicked in, he was required to spend no more than 17 minutes with each patient, no matter how potentially complex the problem/aliment might be.

Worse, then he would need to convince some bureaucratic number crunching lackey of the need to order test X, or prescribe drug Y.
The list could go on and on, but Obamacare is a nightmare for the future of our healthcare system (if allowed to exist), and for MD's, it is reason enough to retire early, or not even get into the field to begin with.


`
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Old 07-05-2020, 02:40 PM
 
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I think it's one of the worst. Most specialties are dealing w/ much illness and death, plus insurance company regulations, long hours, worries about malpractice, running a successful practice, etc.
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:31 AM
 
19,778 posts, read 18,073,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
It's really hard to know what someone's financial picture really is. Perhaps their parents or families helped them out. People often won't give the whole story.

I think that student loan debt for two married doctors must be staggering, unless they both got full scholarships. It sounds to me like they are living outside of their means and possibly doing a lot on credit cards. But that's just my opinion. Many professionals buy cars & homes they can't afford, to give the illusion of success.
I've read your posts about student loan debt before. IMO your fear of SLs causes you to see much of this wrongly.

Narrow......
I see my son and his wife's financial picture in high resolution. Per our son my wife and I, plus a nice scholarship, paid for all of his schooling he has no school debt (he insisted on borrowing a small amount his MS-4 year but he paid that off his first year of residency). His wife has ~$180K in student loan debt. The two make $127,500 combined.

So let's focus on her. She comes from a family of low level criminals, cheats and liars - they are like Irish Travelers without the cool accents.....she's the rose that emerged from brambles. The long and the short of it is she was able to escape the serial sloth and stupidity that envelops her family because of her brain-power and student loans helped her do so. Average first year pay in her specialty is right at $365K.

Forget about putting distance between her and her family...............there is no universe in-which taking on $180k in debt vs. a $365K annual salary with high long term confidence is a bad deal.

Regarding cars......my son is a neurosurgery resident who has to move, by car, between his domicile and three separate hospitals. He must have a good car. His wife has a baby in the car much of the time, she too has to drive/travel between three hospitals and a couple of clinics. She must have a good car as well.

They are committing a surprising amount into savings and investments per month. And he most certainly are not living on credit cards.


More broadly.......
Student loan default rates among professional school grads and post secondary grads are very low.
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Old 07-08-2020, 05:49 AM
 
5,527 posts, read 3,250,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I've read your posts about student loan debt before. IMO your fear of SLs causes you to see much of this wrongly.

Narrow......
I see my son and his wife's financial picture in high resolution. Per our son my wife and I, plus a nice scholarship, paid for all of his schooling he has no school debt (he insisted on borrowing a small amount his MS-4 year but he paid that off his first year of residency). His wife has ~$180K in student loan debt. The two make $127,500 combined.

So let's focus on her. She comes from a family of low level criminals, cheats and liars - they are like Irish Travelers without the cool accents.....she's the rose that emerged from brambles. The long and the short of it is she was able to escape the serial sloth and stupidity that envelops her family because of her brain-power and student loans helped her do so. Average first year pay in her specialty is right at $365K.

Forget about putting distance between her and her family...............there is no universe in-which taking on $180k in debt vs. a $365K annual salary with high long term confidence is a bad deal.

Regarding cars......my son is a neurosurgery resident who has to move, by car, between his domicile and three separate hospitals. He must have a good car. His wife has a baby in the car much of the time, she too has to drive/travel between three hospitals and a couple of clinics. She must have a good car as well.

They are committing a surprising amount into savings and investments per month. And he most certainly are not living on credit cards.


More broadly.......
Student loan default rates among professional school grads and post secondary grads are very low.
For medical doctors debt is not the issue, opportunity cost is. They sacrifice up to a decade of earnings. Depending on alternate paths, they could have saved up a lot of money and had it invested by the time they begin their first doctor job. It will wash out in the long run, but if you have any FIRE desires medicine is a convoluted path to take.
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Old 07-08-2020, 08:24 AM
 
19,778 posts, read 18,073,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
For medical doctors debt is not the issue, opportunity cost is. They sacrifice up to a decade of earnings. Depending on alternate paths, they could have saved up a lot of money and had it invested by the time they begin their first doctor job. It will wash out in the long run, but if you have any FIRE desires medicine is a convoluted path to take.
1. The person I was responding to has made the point that she'd advise her kid's not consider the MD/DO route because of debt. She also made several logical leaps above that required correction.


2. I'd tend to agree that the real pain point for MDs and DOs is the time sacrifice. However, outside some MD+Ph.D seekers virtually no one on the physician path forgoes earnings for 10 years.


It's usually like this:
4 years medical school - zero pay obviously.

3-8 years residency depending on field - annual resident pay is usually around $55,000 - $68,000. FE a friend's kid is an IM resident locally her pay scale is public.....PGY1-$58,200, PGY2-$60,120, PGY3-$62,600.

Fellowships - if a resident signs a fellowship contract the pay is usually from the middle $60s through the lows $70s.

____________________

As noted before I've plotted pay arcs comparing MDs v. law v engineering v. MBA and others master's v Ph.D math/physics (my son was very interested in math physics, still is) that included the MD time gaps and reduced earnings years at 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles for those careers while using 50th percentile doc. earnings per specialty. Over time it just isn't close.

Going into medicine because of the money is a mistake but the money can be very good.
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Old 07-08-2020, 07:06 PM
 
9,576 posts, read 7,330,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
As noted before I've plotted pay arcs comparing MDs v. law v engineering v. MBA and others master's v Ph.D math/physics (my son was very interested in math physics, still is) that included the MD time gaps and reduced earnings years at 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles for those careers while using 50th percentile doc. earnings per specialty. Over time it just isn't close.

Going into medicine because of the money is a mistake but the money can be very good.
You might want to add dentistry to that. I short of liken a dental practice to a dermatology private practice, which is basically a small business that's usually open from 9-6, M-F.

My step-brother is a dentist in Northeastern PA, he went to Temple dental school, and spent the first 3 years out of dental school working for another dentist, which is quite common. I guess you can think of it like a residency, sort of, but with better pay. I think my step-brother had to give 10-15% of every procedure he did to the dentist he worked for.

Then after those 3 years, he bought a practice in a small suburb, where he lived, with 4-5 thousand patients from a dentist who was retiring, I think the dentist was only in his mid-late 50s. My step-brother ended up taking out a 10-year, $1 million loan for the practice and he kept all of the hygienists and office people.

In the last 5 years he bought another dental practice at the other end of town, now he has two practices with maybe a total of 9,000 patients (pretty much everyone in town!) and now has 2 or 3 dentists under him as well. Let's just say he does quite well, is it the equivalent of an orthopedic or trauma surgeon, maybe, but then again he is also basically running a small business with a dozen employees.

He also only works M-Th, 8 hours or less a day, like some/most dentists and golfs whenever he can from March to November.
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Old 07-08-2020, 08:21 PM
 
19,778 posts, read 18,073,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjseliga View Post
You might want to add dentistry to that. I short of liken a dental practice to a dermatology private practice, which is basically a small business that's usually open from 9-6, M-F.

My step-brother is a dentist in Northeastern PA, he went to Temple dental school, and spent the first 3 years out of dental school working for another dentist, which is quite common. I guess you can think of it like a residency, sort of, but with better pay. I think my step-brother had to give 10-15% of every procedure he did to the dentist he worked for.

Then after those 3 years, he bought a practice in a small suburb, where he lived, with 4-5 thousand patients from a dentist who was retiring, I think the dentist was only in his mid-late 50s. My step-brother ended up taking out a 10-year, $1 million loan for the practice and he kept all of the hygienists and office people.

In the last 5 years he bought another dental practice at the other end of town, now he has two practices with maybe a total of 9,000 patients (pretty much everyone in town!) and now has 2 or 3 dentists under him as well. Let's just say he does quite well, is it the equivalent of an orthopedic or trauma surgeon, maybe, but then again he is also basically running a small business with a dozen employees.

He also only works M-Th, 8 hours or less a day, like some/most dentists and golfs whenever he can from March to November.
Your step brother has done very well. Good for him.
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Old 07-09-2020, 12:37 PM
 
7,473 posts, read 4,014,781 times
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heres good news on federal loan rates also...........https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertf.../#430c359f13a4
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Old 10-09-2021, 12:32 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 3,202,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Since you posted nothing to support your ridiculous assertions that it is "easy" to get into medical school one can correctly assume you made up your "statistics"

"Way more med school slots and way less applicants"

WRONG

Med school applications continue to trend UP not down...

"Statistics from the Association of American Medical Colleges reveal that there were more than 10,000 more applicants seeking admission to a U.S. med school during the 2018-2019 school year than there had been 10 years prior, a roughly 25 percent increase over the 10-year period."


https://www.usnews.com/education/bes...ctor-shortages


1.3 to 1 applicants to slots??? Again you just made that up off the top of your head didn't you?? It certainly has no basis in reality and is easily challenged so why bother?

According to the Association of American Medical Colleges, 53,042 prospective students applied to medical school in the 2016-2017 cycle, and a mere 21,030 students matriculated into U.S. programs. That is roughly 40 percent. The average MCAT score for applicants was 501.8, while the average score for matriculating students raised the bar even higher, to 508.7.

https://www.usnews.com/education/blo...-watch-in-2017

The newer schools of which "there are dozens"....

There are currently 141 medical schools in the US....in the last 13 years exactly 17 new schools have gained accreditation....hardly "DOZENS"

Since 2007, 17 medical schools in the U.S. have gained full accreditation, according to a U.S. News analysis. The majority of the 17 schools, which do not include new remote teaching sites or branch campuses, are dotted up and down the East Coast.
https://www.usnews.com/education/bes...edical-schools

I could continue to "blast the rest of your unfounded contentions out of the water" but why bother???



17 new schools! Yikes! I had no idea it was that many. My comment stands as written.
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