Daughter frustrated that she can't seem to get into more challenging math classes

[Sandpointian]

Originally Posted by WalkingLiberty1919D

My daughter is a little bit frustrated that her teachers aren't recommending her for higher level math (and I am too). Maybe it's just something I don't know or can't see, but I hoped maybe someone could give me some insight into this.

A little background, my daughter is a high school sophomore and is currently in honors core classes except for Algebra 2 (which is regular) and history (which is AP World History). She gets all As in math, always has and she loves math and is considering it as a college major.

Years ago, I had to fight to get her to skip 8th grade math and get placed in Algebra, where she got an A+ in the class. However, she only did good (think B) on the state standardized test though. Because the standardized test was not excellent (think A), she was placed in regular geometry in 9th grade. I figured the teachers knew best and decided it was okay, at least the math better match her ability.

In her freshman year, she scored excellent on her standardized test in geometry and got an A+ in that class too. But when she asked about stepping up to honors Algebra 2, she was told because of the old 8th grade Algebra score was not in excellent territory, she could only take regular Algebra 2. Again I thought the teachers knew best and she was taking her first AP class, so I didn't want her to be overwhelmed. So I let it be.

Little did I know that over the summer, my daughter would announce to me that she wanted to major in "something math" and she wanted her career to be "math-related." She did some research and likes the idea of data-scientist (we know a few), actuary, economist, or someone that crunches numbers and figures out trends. She likes the idea of mathematically "predicting the future."

So here she is in her sophomore year, in Algebra 2, with an A (not an A+ this time, but it's still an A), and it's time for course selections for next year. Since we know she wants to major in something math-related, she asked her teacher again about honors. Turns out there are no more honors classes after this year, the next up would be regular precalculus.

If she'd been in honors Algebra 2, she would be going into AP Calculus AB. So on "parent curriculum night" I asked if it is possible to skip up to AP Calc AB they said, no because it's just too big a gap between the AP course and regular Algebra 2, even with a tutor (I asked what if I hired a tutor to fill that gap, which is what I did when she skipped 8th grade math).

I told my daughter what they told me, and I kind of thought it was a stretch too. So I told her that she was pretty much stuck going into precalc. But I suggested AP Statistics to her because the prerequisites are just regular Geometry and regular Algebra 2 so I thought she should be able to do it. Nope, the won't recommend it for her. They said they will recommend it for her senior year alongside another math.

She's frustrated, and so am I. I just don't get it. Math is her favorite subject and she wants more of a challenge. She had the classes needed to get in to AP Stat and has A's in those prerequisites, but it's not going to happen.

My daughter got mad when she heard this and said she's was taking AP Stat anyway. She was livid.

By the way, because my daughter wants to step back from honors science, she needs an AP or honors class as an elective so she is at least maintaining the same level of challenge or increasing it a little. Evidentially, we are told colleges look at that and if she makes her schedule easier, it will reflect poorly when she applies.

After she calmed down about being mad about not getting recommended for AP Stat, we looked at the courses again and saw AP Economics. It's also related to some of her college interests. Luckily for her, her AP World History teacher thinks she's great and already recommended her for AP US History. Since Econ is part of the Social Studies department she might get get recommended for that. She's going to ask.

I guess I am just frustrated in all this. Is this normal and I am just not informed enough to see why they want her to stay in regular math. Or are they overly cautious?

I can override the teacher recommendations. There is that option. I tend to think they know more than I do about these classes, how hard they really are, etc. They are the experts at the classes after all. But I am the expert in my daughter and when I see my daughter being recommend for honors science (which she hates and and struggles with to keep a B) and not being recommended for honors math (which she loves and she barely has to life a finger to get an A), I just wonder if I should play that parental trump card or not.

Walking Liberty (Nice)

Get a hold

Lial, Hornsby, McGinnis, Intermediate Algebra 9th ed. and the Lial Pre-Calc Book

You can buy these for $20 for both incl. shipping.

Consider an online geometry class

This combo is the ideal background for an AP Calc AB class. These books were the basis of Stanford's EPGY courses of the same title.

I used the whole Lial series for my kids, going back to Beginning Algebra.

The chapter Review, Text and Accumulated Reviews are pretty solid. If you hand pick 25-30, you have valid exam material.

That math foundation is also ideal for a good honors Physics course, say used with Giancoli's algebra-based courses. Which would then be a good pre-req for an AP Physics course.

When you are in a school that your daughter is in, you MUST do 1-2 hours a day and 2-4 each day on the weekend to fill in the gaps. If she is aggressive doing that and utilizing the full summer will allow her to skip.

Honors Algebra I - AP Calc AB -- totally doable on her own.

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I am a supporter of the fit of a course. Some kids respond well to carrots, others to sticks. But many, many kids reject both. Those kids need a pace that suits them

You know your daughter. That is huge. My daughters responded until age 15/16. Then that was it. Son is responding (he is soon to start intermediate algebra.

Grades: Unfortunately tell me very little about your daughter's abilities. B students at top schools are often much better than A+ students studying weaker material.

You can also pick up a copy of an old GSCE math or "additional maths" textbook. There you will find something closer to the global standard.
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Careers:
Economics: get a degree in math or applied math with history
Stats: Math and then Stats for a masters
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Honors Algebra 2 jump to AP Calc AB. Not a good idea. I think a kid who is exceptional with Honors Pre-Calc, AP Calc BC and Giancoli Physics and has great love and intuition will do great in college. Pushing that too hard will great gaps in knowledge and intuition and force her to move away from STEM.

AP Stats is unimportant. No worries.
AP Econ is unimportant. No worries.

Max the math and physics and history.

S.

[otowi]

I have years of teaching math experience. If I were in your district and she had wanted to do honors I would have let her. We allow students to move in/out of honors at will as long as they have necessary prerequisites, which it would seem your daughter did have. I would advise you simply to make sure her track allows her to take Calculus and/or AP Statistics her senior year and not to be discouraged about going on to do math in college. Calculus is more important for most STEM starts than AP Statistics, although most majors these days do need the statistics too - but as a one-off and not as much as a foundational course. I do think honors courses now could prepare her better, possibly (depends a lot on curriculum/teachers where you are) and that it might be worth pushing the issue, but that her current path does not preclude her from later success in college. However, not having Calculus in high school could put her at a slight disadvantage to peers in STEM-track math courses in college - most students start in Calculus but those who already had Calculus in high school tend to do better because it isn't entirely new to them.

Another alternative is to look into summer programs/online programs in which she could self-accelerate.

[Tallysmom]

Originally Posted by WalkingLiberty1919D

I honestly don't know. If it impacts what college she goes to or what major she's able to get into, it could have a pretty big impact. Or it might be a big nothing. I really can't plan that far ahead, I am not a data-scientist or an actuary like she wants to be



To be fair, the teachers say that too, but math was my worst subject. The one I struggled with. So I tend to defer to the teachers (which is what I did all along), but now I am wondering if I should defer to my daughter who wants me to sign the parental "over-ride form."

Hard work could be a deal breaker. I think my daughter struggles with science because she can be lazy about studying (because she doesn't like it). Maybe the teachers see a bit of that laziness, even if she gets good grades.



She is a sophomore and she's already in the middle of Algebra 2. She can't take it again next year. Next year would be pre-Calc and then both AP Stat and AP Calc AB. That seems like a heavier load to me than AP Stat with pre-Calc, but that's what the teacher suggested.

It's good to know about the community college route. We've discussed that idea for keeping college costs down. I don't know when your friend graduated, but lately some colleges are getting pickier about what classes they will transfer from community colleges.

When I was in college, back in the late Jurassic era, community colleges weren’t equal. Just like colleges aren’t equal. What I did was I selected the colleges/universities I wanted to go to eventually, went to them and discovered which community colleges credits transferred easily. I was in luck, that my local community college was a feeder school for several of the universities that I was interested in. So when I did my transfer all of my credits transferred.

It’s kind of like working backwards but that information was out there. But, I was in college in the late 70s early 80s. Things may have changed.

[kitty61]

On line classes are available to anyone who is willing to pay for it. Would that help maybe?

[chessimprov]

I agree with Sandpointian that Honors Algebra 2 jump to AP Calc AB is way too big a jump.
I used to teach HS Math from Algebra to AP Calc BC (I still could go back to teach, but I ended up with a programming job instead).

If your state has cyber school, you could consider that. If you can afford community college or afford a private cyber school, those are potential options you could consider as well for taking math classes. You could also consider the route of going to a tutoring center to advance her math that way as well. It's not commonly done, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

What also helps your daughter's case is if she can independently speak for herself and explain how she can balance all of her activities, express her interest in math, and why her advancement in courses and working with logistics (and understanding all those logistics) will be a benefit to the school district, teachers, and the community rather than a burden and a liability. All these factors will help maximize your daughter's success. Of course, she needs your support, but you have to also allow her to advocate for herself if she truly wants this.

I think we can assume that your daughter doesn't have behavior problems. If that is not the case, then that's certainly an issue for trying to ask for special permission for advanced course work. It might not be said out, but if someone's a behavior problem where they are at now, they could disrupt the learning process at a higher course level because they don't understand the material that's too hard and affect the learning of others around them. Basically, don't be a burden to teachers, the district, and community and that will help a lot. Maybe your daughter could consider even offering to tutor a student for free once a week for 1 hour if she gets the courses she wants as well.

[City Guy997S]

1st - Why would you let "one NO" stop her from asking again, somewhere else?

I always taught my kids to be polite but if you get an answer you don't like to ask someone else. First semester at a very hard to get into University they told my kid they needed to take all online classes. They balked at that idea and said if they are taking all online then they would stay home (avoiding the dorms/fees). Admins said that wasn't possible and my kid said then I need to attend real classes........back and forth for a day and suddenly 4 real classes appeared on their schedule.


Be polite and look for other avenues to proceed to your goal........

[DefiantNJ]

I went to high school several decades ago. But even then, admission to the AP classes was difficult and required a recommendation from a teacher who know a student. This is for good reason. These are taught almost like college classes so understandably teachers want only the strongest students there. Also, I think the grades on AP exams are tracked somewhere so teachers do not want anyone who will lower the class average.

As to your daughter's situation, I think the red flag might be that she is not an overall A student and does worse on science than on math. Usually, only excellent students take AP classes. If you daughter only studies/works hard on something that she likes then it could be a problem. AP Calculus covers a lot of different topics. If she doesn't like some of them, is she just not going to study?

So if you are going to override teacher's recommendation, you might place your daughter to AP Statistics. I would say she is not ready for Calculus yet.