Should Some Type Of Degree Or Certification Be Given To One That Does Not Attend College But Has Acquired Knowledge Thru (community college, schools)

[Oldgorilla]

Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident

That's what the criteria should be, but things are often so far removed from such a standard that its laughable.

Do you have an example? Did someone get an honorary degree by watching LA Law?

[WalkingLiberty1919D]

There are some certifications like this. I work for a 501c6 (business association) and we have certifications. You don't need to prove education, you just have to pass the exam to be certified and do continuing education if you do pass to maintain the certification. That said, most people can't pass the exam without a college education but if someone was really self-motivated, they could theoretically do it. Nothing stops them from taking the exam.

I think there are other organizations and certifications like this. But my own certification required proof of a degree to take the exam (and that might be more of the norm).

[nicet4]

Seems like OP is talking about me.

I graduated high school back in the 1960's after which I attended one semester of college at San Jose State which I absolutely hated.

A couple false starts and kicks and eight years after high school I found myself as a draftsman trainee laying out fire sprinkler systems for buildings of all things. When I started there wasn't any certification and in most locations the only people to review the design was insurance underwriters that had huge departments where that was all they did.

Back in the 70's it was rather easy because all we had was three different types of sprinkler heads (upright, pendent and sidewall) and most piping was what we called "pipe schedule". Pipe schedule for a store was we could feed 2 sprinklers with 1" pipe, a 3rd sprinkler with 1 1'4" pipe while a 4th and 5th sprinkler would be supplied with 1 1/2" pipe and so on. We didn't have computers, if we did hydraulic calculations we did them by hand drafting was paper and pencil.

My first addition of NFPA #13 "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems" was about 100 pages not counting the index.

With six months of training I was actually doing projects and with two years under my belt I could and did handle some pretty good size jobs such as hospitals, K-Marts and such. I did a lot of K-Marts.

Liability? Looking at how it was handled it appears the insurance companies were taking that one because I would submit drawings and they would come back stamped "Approved" by some real big big (said that twice on purpose) insurance companies with billions.

Boy, has things changed over 50 years.

Today there's over 1,000 different sprinkler types and my 6"x8" NFPA #13 turned from 100 pages to a handbook with over 1,300 pages measuring 8 1/2" by 11". Add in the other standards along with FM Global technical data sheets and I have no doubt we got every bit of 10,000 plus pages of very technical stuff.

Starting in 1980 the industry knew there had to be some changes so the National Institute for Certification in Engineering Technologies (NICET) developed testing for four levels of certification.

NICET is a Division of the National Society of Professional Engineers and it was they that developed the written tests that one has to pass to gain certification.

For certification there's Level I though Level IV and the minimum time you must have prior to taking a test is six months for Level I, two years for Level II, five years for Level III and ten years for Level IV. They do verify in writing with previous employers as to experience levels and if you think the test is easy you are greatly mistaken. The failure rate for Level IV certification is 85% and if I had to take it again today I don't think I would pass.

To give an idea for Level IV certification you will be expected to solve flows in a simple pipe grid using the Hardy Cross Method and while I did it 35 years ago I wonder if I could do it today. I probably could but I wonder about my patience. Total time for written testing for all levels is about a week.

For licensing we're probably the most regulated in the construction industry and while laws vary around the country pretty typical is the licensing requirements for the State of Illinois.

(225 ILCS 317/20)
Sec. 20. Designated certified person requirements.

(a) A designated certified person must either be a current Illinois licensed professional engineer or hold a valid NICET level 3 or higher certification in "fire protection technology, automatic sprinkler system layout".

(b) At least one member of every firm, association, or partnership and at least one corporate officer of every corporation engaged in the installation and repair of fire sprinkler systems must be a designated certified person.

(c) A designated certified person must be employed by the licensee at a business location with a valid license.

(d) A designated certified person must perform his or her normal duties at a business location with a valid license.

(e) A designated certified person may only be the designated certified person for one business location and one business entity.

(f) A designated certified person must be directly involved in supervision. The designated certified person does not, however, have to be at the site of the installation or repair of the fire sprinkler system at all times.

So it works pretty good because where I work I hold the company license a good number of states.

For federal jobs, the Department of Defense for example, they can get even more demanding as outlined in this specification for a Wright Patterson Air Force Base project.

The good thing is there's only 1,100 Level IV's in the country with a good number of them holding professional engineers licenses but they go for the NICET certification because it offers easy portability across state lines.

Pay? PayScale has Salary for Certification: Certified Senior Engineering Technician (NICET IV)
$83k.

In case anybody wonders I do hold errors and omissions insurance. I take my job very seriously.

As a big plus I am 71 years old and still work full time because I love what I do. Financially I could quit work tomorrow but why would I want to do that and miss out in all the fun? I get paid good money to solve puzzles and games.... maybe when I am 80.

So yes, some things the OP was talking about really do exist.

[IowaViking]

Originally Posted by TheGoodTheBadTheUgly

I make certain that I know all subjects inside/out to become an engineer. Why shouldn’t I be considered a certified engineer. Especially if I know more about engineering than let say a student that graduated with a BS degree in engineering.

Many others have discussed the requirements and rationale for becoming a professional engineer. Let's set that to the side for the moment.

There are folks working in technical positions, side by side with graduate engineers, doing the same work and making the same money. The challenge for folks without the degree is this- how do you get into a position to be considered for those jobs? Some companies will not consider hiring anyone without a piece of paper. Some positions could not have the work done by an engineer without a PE. Those jobs may not have a path for someone without the paper.

There are many good technical jobs that will not require a degree. You may need to apprentice, or prove yourself. A 2 year degree may be enough. There may be jobs where you can get your foot in the door, but find yourself with a ceiling imposed by a bureaucratic rule some place. I have seen some folks have their career put on hold because a recent MBA decided that anyone making parts should have a degree. But we need to be careful if we want to protest about this being unfair. Because a lot of business and career things are not fair.

There are paths to technical jobs. Some of those jobs will even hang the 'engineer' word as part of the job description. I would encourage you to focus on the job, and not get hung up on the title.

[StealthRabbit]

. (NICET)

I'm one of those too.. 1976... Not FIRE, so many options, so many jobs, so little time... If OP is a 'scraper' they can make it, but... A traditional edu gets you there faster and more consistently. Unfortunately, often with a whole lot less 'know-how'. One ME we hired last yr, need a tutorial on how to change license plates on mommy's car!. Wow, what a change in generations. The day I completed my driver's training at age 14 was the LAST day I ever touched my parent's cars.

[prospectheightsresident]

Originally Posted by Oldgorilla

Do you have an example? Did someone get an honorary degree by watching LA Law?

I see it mainly with the honorary degree of Doctor of Laws. One example is singer/composer/actor Nick Cave, who has been awarded several honorary doctorates of laws, despite now having any legal background. Many people like him are usually awarded the honorary Doctor of Humane Letters, which would cover their talents, but this isn't always the case.

[ocnjgirl]

Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident

I see it mainly with the honorary degree of Doctor of Laws. One example is singer/composer/actor Nick Cave, who has been awarded several honorary doctorates of laws, despite now having any legal background. Many people like him are usually awarded the honorary Doctor of Humane Letters, which would cover their talents, but this isn't always the case.

But those people with the honorary degrees can’t actually practice in that field. You still have to pass the bar exam to be a lawyer, and you’re not going to pass it without having been to law school.

[prospectheightsresident]

Originally Posted by ocnjgirl

But those people with the honorary degrees can’t actually practice in that field. You still have to pass the bar exam to be a lawyer, and you’re not going to pass it without having been to law school.

All very true. My only point was that people getting honorary degrees aren't just getting them because of substantial success in that particular field.

[OtterTrees]

Well, it still wouldn't be free to take an alternate route because exams and certifications would still cost money. And, it wouldn't be time efficient for employers to test all job candidates on the full spectrum of skills required for a professional or technical job during the interviewing process. Also, there are so many self-paced programs now that offered mostly online from practically all colleges. The key is that you can't just expect that a respected governing body or institution will just hand over certifications or degrees for free. But, you can get a job at a company that offers tuition reimbursement and get a degree or training for free or at a very reduced cost. And as others have pointed out, you need to have applied and tested that learning throughout the training/education.

[CorporateCowboy]

Originally Posted by ocnjgirl

There are colleges that count life experience. For instance Thomas Edison State University in NJ has been doing this for decades. They don't give you a degree based only on life experience, but you can take a test demonstrating proficiency in a variety of courses required in your degree program and if you pass, you get full credit for that course.

There is quite a difference between testing out of a course (or two or five) vs. the OP's question i.e. being self-taught in a library (and no motivation and/or the perceived needed funds to attend college). In the former scenario, the end goal is still an accredited degree.