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Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,690 posts, read 57,994,855 times
Reputation: 46171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritas Vincit
But this is the whole problem of the American system in a nutshell. Kids are advised to spend two hundred thousand dollars or so just to get a piece of paper that 'proves' to employers they aren't layabouts or complete idiots. Meanwhile colleges essentially get to collect this money indefinitely regardless of what product they put out in terms of actually teaching kids useful stuff.
Why not just run a testing regime on applicants instead of asking for a degree?
and expose the OUTPUT from USA colleges and k-12? Too many people at the feed trough / gravy train of 'ineffective' USA EDU.
truly the The Coddling of the American Mind:
How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure https://www.thecoddling.com/
But this is the whole problem of the American system in a nutshell. Kids are advised to spend two hundred thousand dollars or so just to get a piece of paper that 'proves' to employers they aren't layabouts or complete idiots. Meanwhile colleges essentially get to collect this money indefinitely regardless of what product they put out in terms of actually teaching kids useful stuff.
Why not just run a testing regime on applicants instead of asking for a degree?
For this particular job we did do a skills test with various "problems" for them to solve. The finalists all scored 85% or higher on that.
What the college graduates bring is the ability to think on their own. For this job I needed someone who I could delegate and assign projects to without having to give them precise instructions. I need them to be able to do things like collect information from system A on server X, put it into a report I can use on project Y. I found that was very difficult to find among non-college applicants. When I would assign such things to them, they'd ask me exactly what to do to the extent I'd be doing it myself.
It’s become pretty clear that Stealth comes here to let you know how screwed up everyone else is if they aren’t living life his way.
I doubt it's personal; that said, it's clear he has a bias (and a lot of anger) against education as a whole.
My only point is this: acquiring an education (or even a certification of some sort) is meaningful to the majority in terms of potential income and job opportunity as opposed to a high-school education in and of itself - including skilled trades. There's no logical reason for anyone (who is successful or happy) to have a problem with someone who chooses (or values) education to pursue personal success and/or better one's self in their own way - even if one doesn't choose it for himself/herself.
Therefore, I find it bizarre when a tradesman uses hype (per the thread) as a 'weapon' to attack education as 'entirely fluff'.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,690 posts, read 57,994,855 times
Reputation: 46171
This is only a discussion on the viability of Skilled trades. Nothing is 100% a path for all, certainly not the skilled trades as few can hack it, do it well, and certainly our new 'USA service based economy' leaves little need for skilled manufacturing or industry (prior USA economic mainstay, and fueled the previous prominence of USA industrial production). No more, as we have promoted higher edu as the path to success. And now we get to live with those results. +/-
I certainly haven't classified all education as fluff. (just mine was, but it was ALL free so no great loss). As previous mentioned, millions utilize degrees to fake it for their entire career. Has worked since beginning of edu, and very effectively.
Fine, use EDU as your tool to success, if that is your choice it is very unlikely you are suited for skilled trades, by ability or interest. But... there is also complete viability for some capable and willing to choose Skilled Trades. Do what suits you. This is a very big world and plenty of room in the sandbox for all to play. There are even some highly educated who contribute to the betterment of our society. They are actually DOING something purposeful and we are grateful for those few so talented and inclined. The vast majority are "striving after the wind" in the quest for success. Only actual results differentiate those of significance. Very easy to quest for success in life by building on a huge pile of dead bodies you just destroyed to get there. Enjoy your journey. Mine's complete.
Very easy to quest for success in life by building on a huge pile of dead bodies you just destroyed to get there.
This is what I meant by bias/anger i.e. equating success, education, and/or anything other than (overrating) a 'skilled trade' to 'building on a huge pile of dead bodies'. It's simply not rational; not all of us come from a long line of ranchers or trades. ; )
This is what I meant by bias/anger i.e. equating success, education, and/or anything other than (overrating) a 'skilled trade' to 'building on a huge pile of dead bodies'. It's simply not rational; not all of us come from a long line of ranchers or trades. ; )
I’m sure in his world I’m piling on dead bodies. I work as part of a firm that employees over 10,000 people. I help the people who work on my team be as successful as they can so they can provide for their families and earn money that they in turn spend in the economy. I really think he just wants us all to stay off his lawn.
The term "skilled trades" today includes non-skilled things. Previously, to call yourself a carpenter (a skilled trade) required the ability to do things like finish carpentry (like mouldings) fit doors de novo (not pre-mounted) and things like that. But today, the dude that can only measure, cut 2 X 4's and nail together a frame for a wall, but nothing much else calls himself a carpenter. Heck..I've done that, and I'm no "carpenter."
So, the term "skilled trades" nowadays has all sorts of meanings.
The term "skilled trades" today includes non-skilled things. Previously, to call yourself a carpenter (a skilled trade) required the ability to do things like finish carpentry (like mouldings) fit doors de novo (not pre-mounted) and things like that. But today, the dude that can only measure, cut 2 X 4's and nail together a frame for a wall, but nothing much else calls himself a carpenter. Heck..I've done that, and I'm no "carpenter."
So, the term "skilled trades" nowadays has all sorts of meanings.
I've heard of a rough carpentry/framing guy, that clearly differs from finish carpentry.
The charges are insane. I had a Toto bidet/toilet purchased and installed for less than what the guy above was stiffed for $30 in parts, a few minutes of tool use, and some time.
At my lake house the other week we had a drain snaked.........wife in a fit of crazy shoved about 5 pounds of bad pork butt down the disposal, and a kitchen drain set replaced for $150. The guy above would have charged $500 and more when the new drain didn't work due a seal blem he missed.
Odds are:
Snaking the tub.....the guy likely used a $150 drill snake with a 25/30ft line and it all probably took 3-6 minutes. Assuming the clog wasn't noodles or rice which my plumber buddy says can be tough.
Pulling a toilet takes 2 minutes. Installing a sub-$10 reinforced wax ring or rubberish seal after removing the old one takes 3 minutes. Reinstalling the toilet takes 2 minutes.
The mounting collar thing is likely bogus. I'd call it one chance in 8 or 10 that the plumber didn't know the collar was dead or maybe the collar wasn't dead at all. I will acknowledge that mounting collars can be a problem. Mounting collars are nearly always less than $20.
I've literally seen - like watched - my buddy Don the plumber replace wax rings in less than 5 minutes start to finish. Unless the toilet collar in question is made of gold or platinum or the snaking job took 5 hours the guy got hosed hard.
I didn’t say the prices weren’t insane. I said the guy charged for each job separately. There is nothing wrong with the way he charged as far as itemizing each charge. The amounts are eye watering high.
You guys think these guys are expensive? . My buddy just got quoted $450 to i freaking kid you not change a 1/4 turn shut off valve on his toilet cause it was leaking.
Most likely OP called a radio plumber. The plumbers with the radio ads are usually commission sales people. And most people call them cause they “trust them”.
I went over there and showed him how to change it. It took me about 10 minutes. And most of that was waiting for the water to drain. He had a threaded connector so it was even easier than the compression ring. He just kept saying that’s it? That’s it? That was what was gonna cost me $450. So like a smart azz I said well the valve is brass and it’s got a new braided stainless steel hose and new gasket.
I didn’t say the prices weren’t insane. I said the guy charged for each job separately. There is nothing wrong with the way he charged as far as itemizing each charge. The amounts are eye watering high.
You guys think these guys are expensive? . My buddy just got quoted $450 to i freaking kid you not change a 1/4 turn shut off valve on his toilet cause it was leaking.
Most likely OP called a radio plumber. The plumbers with the radio ads are usually commission sales people. And most people call them cause they “trust them”.
I went over there and showed him how to change it. It took me about 10 minutes. And most of that was waiting for the water to drain. He had a threaded connector so it was even easier than the compression ring. He just kept saying that’s it? That’s it? That was what was gonna cost me $450. So like a smart azz I said well the valve is brass and it’s got a new braided stainless steel hose and new gasket.
Ahhhhh,...........we are on the same wavelength. Sorry for the confusion.
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Too many people at the feed trough / gravy train
of 'ineffective' USA EDU.
