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And that's a major problem in this discussion. People who have done their graduate studies at least partially online are extrapolating that down to 8th graders trying to learn Algebra and expecting them to have the same focus and drive at 14 as they did at 22+ after graduating from college.
I think that comes from not ever really having been exposed to 8th graders after they themselves left 8th grade and who have little to no experience teaching.
Bottom line is that the smarter and more driven high school kids will do ok, they almost always do no matter what the circumstances but the great blob of average kids, who make up the bulk of students and who education is aimed at, will have many just fall by the wayside due to lack of support and, in many cases, inability to learn without in person, hands on, guidance.
I have a 9th grader and a 5th grader.
The 9th grader was an 8th grader when COVID started, granted she wasn't in Algebra, but Geometry, also she was 13 and not 14.
Specifically because I know kids, outside of my children, I know that the vast majority will not be focused and driven, and don't have perspective and self motivation. Teachers assigning YouTube videos for graduate students either paying out of their own pocket, or with tuition reimbursement from work, in not the same.
People have problems with Internet access, and stupid people in charge, are saying their Internet access provided solution is the answer. They have been providing kids with devices long before COVID-19 started. It is the irresponsible people in charge that are offering a solution that is known that will not help with improving the kids knowledge, behavior, etc.
The adults are more likely to have some "skin in the game". However, most adults aren't mature enough either. Online learning is a less than desirable solution. However, if I'm working and need to be at meetings, travel (pre-COVID), have *emergencies* pop up at work, not to factor in dealing with traffic, other people in the workplace being resentful and making comments about people not being at the office, etc., then for a motivated 22+ year old, it will be better than not continuing their education.
Most kids before COVID-19 had inadequate focus and motivation. Giving them a tool that they saw as an entertainment device, and distraction is not going to help them. A significant percentage of kids in the USA (at least) are going to be on YoutTube, Instagram, TikTok, etc., and not going to be studying.
I seriously doubt the percentage of K-12 students in the US that are self motivated and driven to learn more than they would be forced to learn in person would even equal a single digit percentage point.
Take the tools away and hold them accountable. Fail them, make them lose their summers repeating the class. Teach them that action, or inaction, has consequences. Better they fail now than in college/university.
The cost of an Internet connection is more than the cost of workbooks or textbooks, paper, and pencil. I have seen in the USA before COVID, employment places where kids were placed to the side. If you enable people are they actually teaching the kids, or giving these Internet connected devices as distractions?
Honestly, my 5th grader is going to school in person now. She has enough sense to see that remote learning at her school is lousy and made the choice to go in person. Academically, I would fill more comfortable giving her books to read (or her choice), than sit her behind the computer unassisted with the current mess being presented by her highly ranked school district and supposed excellent elementary school.
Last edited by compSciGuy; 09-20-2020 at 11:44 AM..
When I was in school we got tested and separated into 3 different classes at each grade based on how we scored on the tests.
I think today's mantra of putting all skill levels in the same class does more harm than good. The highly skilled get bored and the least skilled get left behind. Nobody wins here except the social justice bureaucrats who think they did something good for society.
60+ years ago, I went to a tiny elementary school with multi-age classes b/c there weren't enough kids to have individual grade levels. That would not have worked and it was not done. Somehow, we managed. When we got to Jr. High, as it was called at the time, the kids from my school had a pretty high rate of "honor roll" achievement. This "bored" stuff is over-rated. Kids can be given enrichment work if they're that quick to learn. Good teachers can help the lesser skilled as well.
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Originally Posted by compSciGuy
I have a 9th grader and a 5th grader.
The 9th grader was an 8th grader when COVID started, granted she wasn't in Algebra, but Geometry, also she was 13 and not 14.
Specifically because I know kids, outside of my children, I know that the vast majority will not be focused and driven, and don't have perspective and self motivation. Teachers assigning YouTube videos for graduate students either paying out of their own pocket, or with tuition reimbursement from work, in not the same.
People have problems with Internet access, and stupid people in charge, are saying their Internet access provided solution is the answer. They have been providing kids with devices long before COVID-19 started. It is the irresponsible people in charge that are offering a solution that is known that will not help with improving the kids knowledge, behavior, etc.
The adults are more likely to have some "skin in the game". However, most adults aren't mature enough either. Online learning is a less than desirable solution. However, if I'm working and need to be at meetings, travel (pre-COVID), have *emergencies* pop up at work, not to factor in dealing with traffic, other people in the workplace being resentful and making comments about people not being at the office, etc., then for a motivated 22+ year old, it will be better than not continuing their education.
Most kids before COVID-19 had inadequate focus and motivation. Giving them a tool that they saw as an entertainment device, and distraction is not going to help them. A significant percentage of kids in the USA (at least) are going to be on YoutTube, Instagram, TikTok, etc., and not going to be studying.
I seriously doubt the percentage of K-12 students in the US that are self motivated and driven to learn more than they would be forced to learn in person would even equal a single digit percentage point.
Take the tools away and hold them accountable. Fail them, make them lose their summers repeating the class. Teach them that action, or inaction, has consequences. Better they fail now than in college/university.
The cost of an Internet connection is more than the cost of workbooks or textbooks, paper, and pencil. I have seen in the USA before COVID, employment places where kids were placed to the side. If you enable people are they actually teaching the kids, or giving these Internet connected devices as distractions?
Honestly, my 5th grader is going to school in person now. She has enough sense to see that remote learning at her school is lousy and made the choice to go in person. Academically, I would fill more comfortable giving her books to read (or her choice), than sit her behind the computer unassisted with the current mess being presented by her highly ranked school district and supposed excellent elementary school.
Could you expand upon that? I really don't understand what you're saying. Kids at the parents' place of employment? I don't get it. There has to be some way of getting the teacher into the home, and the internet seems to be the best way.
So you let your 5th grader, 10 years old, make a decision that could severely affect her health and the health of the entire family? Does she have the sense to understand that? That is what this boils down to. Covid is a serious disease in some people.
Could you expand upon that? I really don't understand what you're saying. Kids at the parents' place of employment? I don't get it. There has to be some way of getting the teacher into the home, and the internet seems to be the best way.
Plus, a lot of textbooks now are online and/or digital rather than print.
Hardcover print textbooks are $80+ and if you figure a kid has between four and eight of them, I'm not sure that's significantly less expensive than 9 months of home internet coverage. Then again, if they don't get lost, you do get several years worth of use out of them before they're too damaged or outdated to continue using.
Plus, a lot of textbooks now are online and/or digital rather than print.
Hardcover print textbooks are $80+ and if you figure a kid has between four and eight of them, I'm not sure that's significantly less expensive than 9 months of home internet coverage. Then again, if they don't get lost, you do get several years worth of use out of them before they're too damaged or outdated to continue using.
IF you have more than one kid taking the same class and using the same texts!
So you let your 5th grader, 10 years old, make a decision that could severely affect her health and the health of the entire family? Does she have the sense to understand that? That is what this boils down to. Covid is a serious disease in some people.
It’s a good decision. We now know that a 10-year-old is more at risk of serious health complications from influenza than from COVID-19. Multiple studies of contact tracing data have shown that children spread the virus less efficiently than adults, so her school attendence introduces far less risk to the family than her parents’ attendance at work.
If faced with the same options, I wouldn’t let my kids choose. I would simply send them with instructions to keep their masks on and practice their very best hygiene, just like I do at work. If we had a aged or otherwise-comorbid adult living with us, I would have already isolated the at-risk adult, not shut down the rest of the family’s essential activities.
It’s a good decision. We now know that a 10-year-old is more at risk of serious health complications from influenza than from COVID-19. Multiple studies of contact tracing data have shown that children spread the virus less efficiently than adults, so her school attendence introduces far less risk to the family than her parents’ attendance at work.
If faced with the same options, I wouldn’t let my kids choose. I would simply send them with instructions to keep their masks on and practice their very best hygiene, just like I do at work. If we had a aged or otherwise-comorbid adult living with us, I would have already isolated the at-risk adult, not shut down the rest of the family’s essential activities.
It's a very poor decision. Not only can the child get sick, but she can infect the whole family, which includes adults who may not fare as well as a kid. I would like to see at least two of these "multiple studies". Were they peer-reviewed? Or were they done by alt-med doctors? Who is comparing school attendance to parents' work attendance? The school thing should be decided on the basis of what is going on at school. Good for you for your plan to lock up your at-risk adult.
"Keep their face masks on". If you post on Facebook, you've surely seen the cartoons about kids losing masks, dropping them on the ground, in a mud puddle, kids trading masks because Suzy likes Mary's better and Mary likes Amy's, etc, etc. "Practice their very best hygiene" which probably will decrease their chances of disease minimally. Seriously, it has been well established that transmission from fomites is minimal. https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journ...20)30561-2.pdf "Exaggerated risk of transmission of COVID-19 by fomites"
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...on-of-covid-19 "The CDC describes this as a "possible" route of coronavirus transmission but maintains that close contact between people is thought to be responsible for most new infections."
Honestly, my 5th grader is going to school in person now. She has enough sense to see that remote learning at her school is lousy and made the choice to go in person. Academically, I would fill more comfortable giving her books to read (or her choice), than sit her behind the computer unassisted with the current mess being presented by her highly ranked school district and supposed excellent elementary school.
One of my kids is doing the hybrid option. Overall it’s ok but there are additional challenges when you only see your teacher in person one day a week and there are also challenges with doing all of the work online through Google Classroom which does have some known glitches. She could also use more direct math instruction. I can’t wait until they can go back in person full time.
It's a very poor decision. Not only can the child get sick, but she can infect the whole family, which includes adults who may not fare as well as a kid. Who is comparing school attendance to parents' work attendance? The school thing should be decided on the basis of what is going on at school.
It could be a poor decision if the child is immunocompromised, lives with two 90-year-old great-grandparents, and an extended family who are obese or recovering from, say chemotherapy. If it’s a healthy nuclear family staying otherwise isolated (besides school and work), then it’s a good decision.
Education is essential. It is not something that can be delayed or discarded. Distance learning is like distance hair cutting, except that barber shops are not actually essential, and should actually be closed.
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Good for you for your plan to lock up your at-risk adult.
Any adult who is not isolating to, the greatest extent possible, is risking their own health and the health of others much more than any child. The science is very clear on this point. Adults need to stay away from each other.
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"Keep their face masks on". If you post on Facebook, you've surely seen the cartoons about kids losing masks, dropping them on the ground, in a mud puddle, kids trading masks because Suzy likes Mary's better and Mary likes Amy's, etc, etc.
Facebook is not the driver of my decisions. Real-world experience is.
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"Practice their very best hygiene" which probably will decrease their chances of disease minimally. Seriously, it has been well established that transmission from fomites is minimal. https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journ...20)30561-2.pdf "Exaggerated risk of transmission of COVID-19 by fomites"
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...on-of-covid-19 "The CDC describes this as a "possible" route of coronavirus transmission but maintains that close contact between people is thought to be responsible for most new infections."
Another good reason why a 10-year-old can safely attend school. The argument against her attending is that children touch their faces more often and was their hands less. Since fomites are not a major vector, these behaviors are less consequential.
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I would like to see at least two of these "multiple studies". Were they peer-reviewed? Or were they done by alt-med doctors?
Not that children can't spread it, but they are not the primary vector, despite having potentially worse hygiene.
Every child should not be loosed upon the world, as some are not capable of keeping masks on or practicing social distancing. However, the 10-year-old in question is likely making a good decision to continue her education.
Adults who eat out, socialize, visit grocery stores (instead of having groceries delivered), play team sports, get hair/nails done, and go to work at non-essential businesses are making the bad decisions that spread the virus.
I’m sure that plenty of adults who call for children to be locked in are out and about, putting the population at risk. It’s very easy to blame someone else for your own failings. That doesn’t make it right.
It could be a poor decision if the child is immunocompromised, lives with two 90-year-old great-grandparents, and an extended family who are obese or recovering from, say chemotherapy. If it’s a healthy nuclear family staying otherwise isolated (besides school and work), then it’s a good decision.
Education is essential. It is not something that can be delayed or discarded. Distance learning is like distance hair cutting, except that barber shops are not actually essential, and should actually be closed.
Any adult who is not isolating to, the greatest extent possible, is risking their own health and the health of others much more than any child. The science is very clear on this point. Adults need to stay away from each other.
Facebook is not the driver of my decisions. Real-world experience is.
Another good reason why a 10-year-old can safely attend school. The argument against her attending is that children touch their faces more often and was their hands less. Since fomites are not a major vector, these behaviors are less consequential.
Not that children can't spread it, but they are not the primary vector, despite having potentially worse hygiene.
Every child should not be loosed upon the world, as some are not capable of keeping masks on or practicing social distancing. However, the 10-year-old in question is likely making a good decision to continue her education.
Adults who eat out, socialize, visit grocery stores (instead of having groceries delivered), play team sports, get hair/nails done, and go to work at non-essential businesses are making the bad decisions that spread the virus.
I’m sure that plenty of adults who call for children to be locked in are out and about, putting the population at risk. It’s very easy to blame someone else for your own failings. That doesn’t make it right.
So you say. You do know that low risk does not mean zero risk. Almost everyone over 50 has some sort of pre-existing condition that could make them more likely to die of Covid, and many under 50 as well. Once people get into their 40s, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and obesity start to happen. And of course, you're well aware that kids (like adults) can spread Covid when asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic, meaning they could infect others than their immediate family while out in public. And what about the staff at the school? My district has some sort of policy that each kid can have contact with 4 adults per day. I'm certain some of those adults have pre-existing conditions, are pregnant, perhaps immunocompromised, and I'm not talking about people undergoing chemotherapy. I'm talking about people on long-term steroids for some reason, things like that that leave them able to hold a job.
There is no relation between distance learning and distance hair-cutting. If you were ever on this thread pre-Covid, say for a couple of days, you saw posts advocating online learning. I'd say education can be delayed when doing so risks the health and life of many people. There's no "now or never" with education.
We're not talking about adults here, we're talking about school children.
The reason teachers post stuff like that on Facebook is because it's true!
I never made the argument about kids touching their faces, so I have no idea why you brought it up to disagree with me about.
My 9th grader is starting back tomorrow morning for 1 day a week (rotating so the school won’t be more than 25% full). This phase lasts for 2 weeks before moving to 2 days a week for 2 weeks. In 4 weeks he will plan to return full time.
Each phase progresses based upon a decline in virus transmission rates. Should things reverse so will in-class learning.
He’s actually doing very well with remote learning but I feel he needs to go back. He’s responsible and will wear a mask and socially distance as much as possible. If there is an outbreak in the school there are procedures and protocols in place across the district.
My 7th grader will be learning from home until back 5 days a week. He’s more nervous about returning until the numbers drop further plus he’s at the same school as before so when he returns he will already be comfortable.
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