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Old 08-19-2020, 11:14 AM
 
6,196 posts, read 2,738,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
USA school districts could sell 1/2 the buses and buildings if we only doubled up shifts (2 class sessions / day). Considering how many parents now drive their kids to school, another 1/2 the buses could be sold. Surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a 'reduction in commute trips' incentive for soccer mom's and dads.

To rethink all the waste and pollution we have created by being inefficient and complacent in edu would make a nice and useful assignment for homebound covid kids and educators. Now is the time to fix it. Probably could get some Federal $ for the research.
How is that going to work? It isn’t like you can close down a school and the kids from that closed school live the same distance from the open school as the kids in the open school’s district. They typically live farther away. Many districts have limits on how long children can spend on a bus. I know this was an issue for my countywide magnet program because some kids were getting on a bus at early as 5:30 for a 7:25 start time. I think they eventually changed it to no earlier than 6 to prevent kids from losing tons of sleep or being in a bus for almost 4 hours a day. In some areas, there aren’t a lot of schools in the same area, so shutting one down will increase the commute exponentially. I just moved from an area where many of the schools were brand new and already had portables for being overcrowded. Going to a double school day there would not be feasible because the capacity is not there even for the single group, much less twice as many kids.
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Old 08-19-2020, 12:12 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
26,166 posts, read 43,916,783 times
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Plenty of countries already do this (double shift use of schools), so... as an educator,.... figure it out! Plenty of empty churches M-F, soon-to-be-empty office buildings.

Smart educators and their logistics staff can handle it, for some areas it might mean different days using the facility and getting twice the academic progress. Dairy Farm Boarding School opened my eyes to a lot of 'opportunity'. Rural ranches and islands handle difficult logistics, cities can as well. If it is a city with public transit, they can change school hours to avoid peak commute hours. I would have much rather schooled at night. Schools and libraries have lights, but it is tough to farm and ranch (or hunt or fish) in the dark.
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Old 08-19-2020, 02:25 PM
 
204 posts, read 46,389 times
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No, we can't just pay parents. If they're going to quit their jobs to teach their kids (or lose their jobs because they're teaching their kids), you can't just pay them $100 for their trouble and call it a day. Were you thinking of an actual living wage? Because now, instead of paying one person to teach 25-30 kids, you'd be paying the same wages to oh, 15 people to teach the same number of kids. Where's that extra money going to come from?

I'm not even getting into the ridiculous idea that this would be good for kids somehow. You're failing to see the difference between parents who chose to homeschool, pre-pandemic, because they think they have the time and ability, and parents who have neither, and did not choose to homeschool until they were forced to. Never mind that I've heard experienced teachers say that they can't teach their own kids - the kids see them as mom or dad, not someone whose job it is to teach.
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Old 08-19-2020, 04:57 PM
 
Location: interior Alaska
5,395 posts, read 3,869,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
I know some home schooled kids. I work with young adults who were home schooled. Almost always these folks are socially delayed. Often they lack educationally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
I hire them (Home and public schooled) and find quite the opposite.

Negative social skills of "group schooled", and very positive benefits of cross generational skillset and self starting of homeschooled students (They are usually capable of running the place).
I'm in a position where I interact closely with a lot of recent high school graduates. My general impression is that both of these are true.

The formerly homeschooled students tend to be either stellar in terms of academic proficiency and general maturity, or worryingly lacking in both. It is extremely clear who was taught by parents who were thoughtful and skilled at homeschooling, versus who just basically stayed home from school. I also see kids coming out of homeschool who really would have benefitted from the services that are routinely provided in public schools for various exceptionalities, and now have to play catch up because of this.

The mainstream-schooled kids tend to fall on a wide spectrum between these two extremes.

The very, very highest performers generally come out of high quality public school advanced/accelerated programs, which have resources to draw on that even an extremely dedicated homeschooling parent would have trouble arranging for a kid.

I should include that I'm generally not encountering the kids who truly washed out of either traditional or homeschooling, so I am not seeing the far left of that bell curve for either population. I'm only seeing people who actually got high school diplomas or a GED one way or the other.

My own analysis of the situation is that a quality education tailored just to you, delivered by people who care for you personally, is awesome for kids. But regular schools, even unimpressive regular schools, have a degree of quality control that's not there for homeschooling, and while you might have a subpar teacher for this year or that subject, you'll also have more skilled teachers other years and subjects. The highs are higher for homeschooling but the potential bottom is also lower, particularly in states like mine that are very lax about homeschooling regulations.

Last edited by Frostnip; 08-19-2020 at 05:13 PM..
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Old 08-19-2020, 05:19 PM
 
8,513 posts, read 4,829,581 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblahyoutoo View Post
it'll never happen.
1. teacher's unions are too powerful
2. you are forgetting that there are many uneducated parents. how do you expect them to educate their children when they can barely read at a high school level?
Parents CAN homeschool in most states, IF they meet the requirements laid down by each state. If they can't, that's a state issue and unrelated to teacher's unions (which are not powerful at all).

In my state anyone can apply and get certified to home school. But if a parent has learning issues herself (it's usually women), she may not be able to get certified. That's for the protection of the students. Every student should have at least competent teachers for a certain curriculum, guaranteeing each student leaves school with the opportunity to have been taught the same things, more or less, than other students in the country. It has nothing to do with teacher's unions. The classes in public schools are often too large, anyway. And it doesn't affect taxation.
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Old 08-20-2020, 07:45 AM
 
5,846 posts, read 7,966,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
I hire them (Home and public schooled) and find quite the opposite.

Negative social skills of "group schooled", and very positive benefits of cross generational skillset and self starting of homeschooled students (They are usually capable of running the place). Group schooled students sit on their hands and wait for specific directions - (I don't have time for that), when you leave the workplace the Group schooled employees will 'Act-out" rather than work. That costs a lot of money, as they often get injured, and destroy equipment and cause customers to leave or find another supplier. Customer phone skills are vastly different between Public Schooled employees and homeschooled, this either brings or turns-off customers. Trusting your employees to drive company vehicles !!!

YMMV
I think it is both. There are some homeschooled kids who are very well socialized and educated, and there are public school kids who are very socialized and educated, and there are some of both who are not, for one or either. In many cases, it is not the setting that is making the difference, it is the family/parents.
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Old 08-20-2020, 09:41 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
26,166 posts, read 43,916,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otowi View Post
I think it is both. There are some homeschooled kids who are very well socialized and educated, and there are public school kids who are very socialized and educated, and there are some of both who are not, for one or either. In many cases, it is not the setting that is making the difference, it is the family/parents.
I find the most important difference is engagement of students in a broad variety of opportunities and responsibilities. (From a young age).

That can be done in many formats,
TIME and purpose to do this is critical. (Unschooling helped us as school was always way down on family priorities. - engaged kids are learning 24x7)
Leadership training and opportunities - (high impacts for students that I have experienced / witnessed) ALL available during Covid, maybe MORE available since soo much FREE time.
  1. 4H "My heart to greater loyalty, My hands to larger service, My health to better living, For my club, my community, my country, and my world."
  2. Peer Mentoring (at school or in organizations)
  3. Scouting (of years gone by)
  4. Camp positions for youth participation
  5. Farm / ranch career kids (they have many responsibilities from a young age, and have watched a lot of their animals die (strong lesson of life)) I lost (5) farm friends / classmates from accidents BEFORE finishing High school
  6. Family business participation
  7. Internationally raised (Amazing capable kids and coworkers have come out of international boarding schools for missionaries, but same with a few basket cases) Everyone is different and responded differently.
  8. Community volunteer kids (At homeless and battered women shelters)
  9. Food Bank / benevolent volunteer kids.

One of my very good friends (now deceased at age 92 boo-hoo) sent all his kids FAR away (foreign countries) at age 18 with a one way ticket to grow up and figure out how to return home. He placed them with friends as a starter, but no funds, just time to grow up and fend for themselves. Not perfect and had it's faults, but another example of variety of options. Military works (or not) for many.


Covid offers so many unique opportunities. (tho reduces community volunteerism, thus I promote 'mentoring' peer-to-peer for younger ages) Protect the elder teachers, without excluding them or their students. GROW the responsibilities / capabilities of those students willing and able to mentor their peers.
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Old 08-20-2020, 10:53 AM
 
4,804 posts, read 4,048,406 times
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I suggest distilling the curriculum down to the basics, and get rid of the political indoctrination. My kid just finished 9th grade and the amount of left-wing politics they've injected into history, English, and social studies is incredible.

Let's just make it Math, science, English skills, and shop/woodworking/automotive repair for those who won't be doing college. The school day could be 8am-1pm. Also, shorten the school year to allow three full months in the summer, like it used to be.

They're just wasting 75% of their time in school now, so let's just admit it and move on. It's more about regimentation and indoctrination, with a mere semblance of education.

100 or more years ago, high school was a rigorous education. Many of us college grads today could not pass a high school exam from 1900; you can find them on the web and it's amazing what they had to learn, not just memorize but utilize. Now it's been dumbed down and diluted to the point where it's challenging to the bottom 25%, boring to everyone else.

Home schooling is great for some, probably not every parent. I've been impressed by every homeschooler I've ever met. A couple of home schoolers (teenage daughters of a marketing guy) were unpaid interns at a startup I used to work for, and they did a better job than the full timers they were assisting. Smart, polite, responsible.
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Old 08-20-2020, 05:38 PM
 
5,846 posts, read 7,966,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
It's more about regimentation and indoctrination, with a mere semblance of education.

100 or more years ago, high school was a rigorous education. Many of us college grads today could not pass a high school exam from 1900; you can find them on the web and it's amazing what they had to learn, not just memorize but utilize. .
As for the regimentation etc., - that is simply an outcome of trying to manage so many youth at once, from diverse backgrounds with diverse needs. It is hard not to have structure with several hundred to several thousand students being managed at once.

As for education a century ago - I have some of my ancestors' report cards and papers and I greatly disagree - the work my grandfather was doing in the 1930s, nearly a 100 years ago now, as a 8th-9th grader looks like what is taught in about 4th-5th grade now, as an example. We now usually expect almost every student to learn Algebra yet 100 years ago that was often an expectation only of a small subset. We now usually expect almost every student to take and pass an SAT/ACT test, but originally we only expected an elite percentage to even attempt such a test, because college was not considered as something intended to be accessible for the majority of youth back then, but rather only an elite minority. Back then, the graduation rate of our high schools was only around 35-45%, the rate of illiteracy was 10 times higher than today, and even if there were a portion of students taking and passing those high level exams you mention, the majority were not even getting a diploma. Only about 1 in 20 went to college, compared to 1 in 3 getting a 4 year degree or higher today, and over half going on to some kind of college/post high school education. Today we graduate more than ever and hold them to a higher standard more than ever, and we also expect schools to teach more topics more than ever - stuff that used to be learned through home experience/parents, etc.

The actual reality is that when considering the total population of the United States, the total educational achievement and attainment in America is higher than it has ever been, despite still not being perfect. It is definitely far better than it was 100 years ago. Where people trip up is comparing apples to oranges - they compare the educational attainment of the top 5% or so of Americans 100 years ago with 100% or so of Americans now - and yes, when comparing that you are going to see the top 5% look better. But compare the top 5% then to top 5% now, or 100% then to 100% now, and a different picture emerges.

Last edited by otowi; 08-20-2020 at 05:51 PM..
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Old 08-20-2020, 06:04 PM
 
Location: interior Alaska
5,395 posts, read 3,869,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
100 or more years ago, high school was a rigorous education. Many of us college grads today could not pass a high school exam from 1900; you can find them on the web and it's amazing what they had to learn, not just memorize but utilize.
And what percent of Americans actually graduated high school? The high school graduation rate was low by any metric, and that was of people who attempted high school. Most people didn't even start - it was ordinary to be finished after 8th grade. My grandmother, who was from that time, only attended through 6th grade, like most girls in her town. The majority of people did not pursue a formal education beyond "reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic."

She resumed schooling and got her GED in her 60s because she wanted to set a good example for her grandchildren, which I still think is lovely.
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