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Old 09-21-2020, 07:20 AM
 
10,347 posts, read 10,637,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
There is a shortage of medical schools/medical school enrollment caps which is part of the problem. Also a shortage of nursing schools.

The fact is that it costs more money to run a medical school than it does a law school. With a law school, all you need is a building a law library. Medical schools (and nursing, dental, etc) require a lot more expensive and sophisticated equipment.

I don't think it's as simple as saying not enough Americans want to be doctors.

https://blog.definitivehc.com/factor...ician-shortage

I would not be opposed to the H1-B program if it required employers to only hire people at the 100K or higher salary level. But there are people coming here on H1-B to do very simple, lower paid jobs. This isn't necessary or helpful.

It's 100% as simple as saying not enough Americans want to be doctors (or better not enough Americans are qualified). With very few exceptions, all foreign born docs. must complete a US residency to practice here.

There is a perpetual undersupply of residencies vs. US medical allopathic MD grads + US DO grads + foreign educated medical grads.

Foreign born docs. make up 29% of the profession. So obviously we don't produce enough US citizen MD grads.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:14 AM
 
Location: NYC
17,635 posts, read 11,237,970 times
Reputation: 21102
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
There is a shortage of medical schools/medical school enrollment caps which is part of the problem. Also a shortage of nursing schools.

The fact is that it costs more money to run a medical school than it does a law school. With a law school, all you need is a building a law library. Medical schools (and nursing, dental, etc) require a lot more expensive and sophisticated equipment.

I don't think it's as simple as saying not enough Americans want to be doctors.

https://blog.definitivehc.com/factor...ician-shortage

I would not be opposed to the H1-B program if it required employers to only hire people at the 100K or higher salary level. But there are people coming here on H1-B to do very simple, lower paid jobs. This isn't necessary or helpful.
This the problem when there aren't enough spent on public education and everyone has to attend a for profit school.

In other countries, state sponsored schools are very good and affordable. So why aren't we spending more on education instead of building jails and jet fighters?

Each JF-22 fighter is enough to run a university for one year at 200mil each.

We have so much money spent on collegiate sports and the money transferred back to the school and into the pockets of the inner circles and not being spent on schools. When some of these big colleges cry they don't get enough funding, why are they building billion $ stadiums and paying coaches millions to run non-educational activity.

America just doesn't invest in education because the funds are being diverted away from student education. When the funds aren't going towards education and require tuition to foot the bill that's how tuition keeps going up while the stadiums are getting bigger and badder.

I boycott college sports because the whole thing is a scam. They scam college players by not paying them and scam the education system by taking funds away from the school in order to enrich the school's inner circle.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:37 AM
 
10,044 posts, read 8,433,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Especially not a nurse! Engineers get much more respect! Not kidding, either.
A lot of them are gone from the field by the age of 35 to 40 in the US.

A Engineering: Young Person's Game

The same appears to be true in India as well as other countries.

There is forced obsolescence in the products sold by the industries and the tools used to produce them.

On the other hand, the technology is getting easier for the other professions that have to use them.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:43 AM
Status: "Autumn!" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,303 posts, read 108,175,538 times
Reputation: 35831
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
It's 100% as simple as saying not enough Americans want to be doctors (or better not enough Americans are qualified). With very few exceptions, all foreign born docs. must complete a US residency to practice here.

There is a perpetual undersupply of residencies vs. US medical allopathic MD grads + US DO grads + foreign educated medical grads.

Foreign born docs. make up 29% of the profession. So obviously we don't produce enough US citizen MD grads.
The bold is untrue. I already posted a link about the acceptance rate at medical schools. It may be there aren't enough med school openings, but that is not the same as not enough Americans wanting to be doctors, or even, IMO, not enough qualified. No med school spot goes unfilled, trust me. Look at the chart in that link. Albany Medical College-8579 applicants, 134 enrolled, 1.5% of applicants. It's even pretty competitive to apply to med school with various letters of reference needed, etc.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:44 AM
 
8,833 posts, read 4,109,862 times
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There is no shortage of engineers. If there were, engineering salaries would be going up faster than average. They aren't, except when a particular field becomes hot.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:45 AM
 
10,347 posts, read 10,637,193 times
Reputation: 9303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
This the problem when there aren't enough spent on public education and everyone has to attend a for profit school.

In other countries, state sponsored schools are very good. So why aren't we spending more on education instead of building jails and jet fighters?

Each JF-22 fighter is enough to run a university for one year at 200mil each.
That's just silly on many fronts.

All in, educationally we outspend every nation on Earth in terms of GDP share.


On the STEM side of things our state schools are for most better choices than private schools. A quick look at the quality and breadth of STEM offerings at say Texas, Cal, Michigan, Texas A&M, Florida, Georgia Tech, Pitt (although it's not strictly public), Illinois, Iowa State and may others............the publics stack up very well vs. privates.

FE - Texas A&M and Cal engineering/math/physics are the key academic partners in Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore National Labs.

______________________

I mis-read where you wrote for profit..........you post is even more absurd than I thought.

Last edited by EDS_; 09-21-2020 at 10:05 AM..
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:51 AM
 
8,833 posts, read 4,109,862 times
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As to the canard of "technological obsolescence":

This is constantly harped on, but ENGINEERING SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE don't become obsolete every few years, what becomes obsolete is the specific set of tools one uses. If you can deal with updates from MS-DOS to Windows 10, you can deal with changing from drafting boards to CAD, you can deal with hand-done circuit calculations to Spice to Mentor Graphics.

"Button pushers" and "plug-and-chuggers" whose "engineering" education consists of learning how to operate a specific set of software to do the work set out for them by others, will suffer technological obsolescence. REAL engineers who were taught the fundamentals of their field and keep up to date on the current tools used in it, will not.

The real objective of those who push the supposed "half life" of engineering knowledge is to push out older higher paid workers for younger lower paid ones, in the ASSUMPTION that the younger ones somehow have knowledge the old ones don't simply by virtue of being younger. Sorry, doesn't work that way. Young engineers DO bring their own values to the table, but the "half life of engineers" is a fable just like the shortage.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:54 AM
Status: "Autumn!" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,303 posts, read 108,175,538 times
Reputation: 35831
Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
This the problem when there aren't enough spent on public education and everyone has to attend a for profit school.

In other countries, state sponsored schools are very good and affordable. So why aren't we spending more on education instead of building jails and jet fighters?

Each JF-22 fighter is enough to run a university for one year at 200mil each.

We have so much money spent on collegiate sports and the money transferred back to the school and into the pockets of the inner circles and not being spent on schools. When some of these big colleges cry they don't get enough funding, why are they building billion $ stadiums and paying coaches millions to run non-educational activity.

America just doesn't invest in education because the funds are being diverted away from student education. When the funds aren't going towards education and require tuition to foot the bill that's how tuition keeps going up while the stadiums are getting bigger and badder.

I boycott college sports because the whole thing is a scam. They scam college players by not paying them and scam the education system by taking funds away from the school in order to enrich the school's inner circle.
For profit colleges? About 8% of college students are at for-profit colleges.
https://capseecenter.org/research/by...e-infographic/
"Students at for-profits are disproportionately older, African American, and female, and are more likely to be single parents. . . Students at for-profits are less likely to have graduated from high school. . . College students who enroll at for-profits are less likely to complete a program."

That's my allowable three, although that rule seems largely ignored these days, but there's much more. For profit students earn less and are less likely to be employed.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:59 AM
 
10,347 posts, read 10,637,193 times
Reputation: 9303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
The bold is untrue. I already posted a link about the acceptance rate at medical schools. It may be there aren't enough med school openings, but that is not the same as not enough Americans wanting to be doctors, or even, IMO, not enough qualified. No med school spot goes unfilled, trust me. Look at the chart in that link. Albany Medical College-8579 applicants, 134 enrolled, 1.5% of applicants. It's even pretty competitive to apply to med school with various letters of reference needed, etc.
1. The other person used the term, "want/wanting" and that's throwing you off. Lots of students may want to become docs........we know this true actually. A sliver of that group are actually qualified for medical school.


2. I saw what you posted and it's not critical to this discussion. The fact that we import 29% of our doctors is critical. And one simply cannot make the case that we have enough residency ready college grads/med school grads to replace that 29% without a loss of quality. Those in that 29% slice are typically very well qualified for residency not marginally qualified.

My son is a PGY-4 resident and my daughter is an MS-2, my wife and I have paid for all of that.......so I have a pretty good feel for this topic.
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:03 AM
Status: "Autumn!" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,303 posts, read 108,175,538 times
Reputation: 35831
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
1. The other person used the term, "want/wanting" and that's throwing you off. Lots of students may want to become docs........we know this true actually. A sliver of that group are actually qualified for medical school.


2. I saw what you posted and it's not critical to this discussion. The fact that we import 29% of our doctors is critical. And one simply cannot make the case that we have enough residency ready college grads/med school grads to replace that 29% without a loss of quality. Those in that 29% slice are typically very well qualified for residency not marginally qualified.

My son is a PGY-4 resident and my daughter is an MS-2, my wife and I have paid for all of that.......so I have a pretty good feel for this topic.
1. As I said, which you don't seem to believe, you have to be pretty competent just to be able to apply to med school. Nothing is "throwing me off". Yes, many are called but few are chosen, but that weed-out process takes place before application.

2. Please document that these people are so "very well qualified".

I worked in nursing for 45 years plus raised two kids, so I have a pretty good feel for this topic, too.

I'm sure you know all this, but it's an interesting read:
https://www.princetonreview.com/med-...l-applications
"Once all the med school class places have been filled, additional qualified candidates are placed on the alternate list and are granted a space only as accepted students decline their acceptance. While it’s rare, some students do drop out of the program in the initial days which can open up additional places."
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