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Old 09-21-2020, 10:17 AM
 
10,347 posts, read 10,637,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
1. As I said, which you don't seem to believe, you have to be pretty competent just to be able to apply to med school. Nothing is "throwing me off".

2. Please document that these people are so "very well qualified".

I worked in nursing for 45 years plus raised two kids, so I have a pretty good feel for this topic, too.

I'll leave the sub-discussions for later. If we have enough well qualified Americans for our residency slots why do we import 29% or so of the bodies needed for those slots?
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:24 AM
Status: "Autumn!" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,303 posts, read 108,175,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I'll leave the sub-discussions for later. If we have enough well qualified Americans for our residency slots why do we import 29% or so of the bodies needed for those slots?
I'd like to see the documentation for that.

https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/pra...olve-physician
"There’s more medical school students than ever before, but there’s still a big obstacle to solving a predicted physician shortage. . .The number of residency positions has increased only 1% a year, far lower than the 52% growth in medical school spots since 2002, the AAMC said. Federally supported residency training slots have been capped by Congress for more than 20 years, limiting the spots for medical school graduates to undergo additional training in a residency program before they can practice medicine."
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:32 PM
 
10,347 posts, read 10,637,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I'd like to see the documentation for that.

https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/pra...olve-physician
"There’s more medical school students than ever before, but there’s still a big obstacle to solving a predicted physician shortage. . .The number of residency positions has increased only 1% a year, far lower than the 52% growth in medical school spots since 2002, the AAMC said. Federally supported residency training slots have been capped by Congress for more than 20 years, limiting the spots for medical school graduates to undergo additional training in a residency program before they can practice medicine."

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-...ians-born.html

Last edited by EDS_; 09-21-2020 at 12:47 PM..
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:54 PM
 
10,347 posts, read 10,637,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
1. As I said, which you don't seem to believe, you have to be pretty competent just to be able to apply to med school. Nothing is "throwing me off". Yes, many are called but few are chosen, but that weed-out process takes place before application.

2. Please document that these people are so "very well qualified".

I worked in nursing for 45 years plus raised two kids, so I have a pretty good feel for this topic, too.

I'm sure you know all this, but it's an interesting read:
https://www.princetonreview.com/med-...l-applications
"Once all the med school class places have been filled, additional qualified candidates are placed on the alternate list and are granted a space only as accepted students decline their acceptance. While it’s rare, some students do drop out of the program in the initial days which can open up additional places."
So far as documentation for my very well qualified comment.

According to 2018 USMLE Step 1 results for those medical gradautes contracted into one of the 22 broad residency specialities...................

IMG's had higher Step 1 scores in 10 areas.
US medical gradautes had a higher Step 1 scores in 3 areas.
6 areas were tied and 3 didn't report IMG averages.
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Texas
13,499 posts, read 5,575,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Who ever has said that? It is very difficult to get into medical school. Med school acceptance rate overall is 7%.
https://mededits-com.cdn.ampproject....Fstatistics%2F
Do you realize that you just made my point?

I mean, that is pretty much what I said in my post. That medical schools have caps on their admissions.
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
Do you realize that you just made my point?

I mean, that is pretty much what I said in my post. That medical schools have caps on their admissions.
1. Yes there is a shortage of US medical school slots.
2. Number 1 is mostly becasue there is a shortage of US born + US educated foreign students qualfied to fill more than the current number of US medical school slots. Admitting unqualfied US born students into medical schools would make a less than desirable situation much worse.

The very large gap between the two is filled by foreign born international medical graduates (foreign IMGs).
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:05 PM
Status: "Autumn!" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,303 posts, read 108,175,538 times
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All your link said was "29 percent of physicians—approaching one in three—were foreign-born." The link gives no further proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
Do you realize that you just made my point?

I mean, that is pretty much what I said in my post. That medical schools have caps on their admissions.
Well, I misread what you said to mean that you thought there weren't enough people who wanted to be doctors. My bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
1. Yes there is a shortage of US medical school slots.
2. Number 1 is mostly becasue there is a shortage of US born + US educated foreign students qualfied to fill more than the current number of US medical school slots. Admitting unqualfied US born students into medical schools would make a less than desirable situation much worse.

The very large gap between the two is filled by foreign born international medical graduates (foreign IMGs).
That is untrue. You seem not to want to believe that many qualified applicants are turned down, even when I showed proof. I personally know people who applied to medical school at least twice before getting in. Did they suddenly become more qualified? I seriously doubt it.
https://www.savvypremed.com/blog/top...medical-school
"Roughly 32% of those rejected didn't have a high enough MCAT score (501 or below, making it really hard to get in). Roughly 18% didn't have a high enough GPA (below a 3.4, which also makes it tough).

But that leaves approximately 50% of the rejects with good enough grades and good enough MCAT. What happened to these candidates?"


Much more. Open and read.
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:29 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
7,483 posts, read 2,045,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Are we getting quality? Simple reality is we are becoming less competitive in the modern world. There is no magic guarantee that the US will remain a technological leader in the future. We have to work at it.
Yep. All you have to do is just look in the education forum for the people who argue we don't need to study algebra in high school because it's too hard.

I'd rather have 50% of a million. Ya'll are missing the point. It's not about total numbers but about what each country is doing with what they have.

The data aren't cherry picked; that's just what they happen to be. BTW, the US literacy rate is about 79% (https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp). And we do have compulsory education.
Our emphasis is not on Math/Science in K-12. You won't do well in STEM in college if you are not good in Math/Science.

PISA has shown the US in decline for quite a number of years now in the area of Math/Science.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:35 AM
 
10,347 posts, read 10,637,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
All your link said was "29 percent of physicians—approaching one in three—were foreign-born." The link gives no further proof.



Well, I misread what you said to mean that you thought there weren't enough people who wanted to be doctors. My bad.



That is untrue. You seem not to want to believe that many qualified applicants are turned down, even when I showed proof. I personally know people who applied to medical school at least twice before getting in. Did they suddenly become more qualified? I seriously doubt it.
https://www.savvypremed.com/blog/top...medical-school
"Roughly 32% of those rejected didn't have a high enough MCAT score (501 or below, making it really hard to get in). Roughly 18% didn't have a high enough GPA (below a 3.4, which also makes it tough).

But that leaves approximately 50% of the rejects with good enough grades and good enough MCAT. What happened to these candidates?"


Much more. Open and read.
*First, information derived from a blog post is not proof of anything.
*I did read your words and supporting links and disagree with your thesis, and frankly I struggle with your tortured logic more than anything else.

1. I posted two germane items.
A). The first shows that ~29% of US docs. were born outside the country - dozens of other sources state similar numbers.
B). The second shows that the foreign born and foreign educated (the degree is usually termed MBBS which is the rough equal to an MD degree in The US) admitted into US medical residencies demonstrate better USMLE Step 1 performance than either US born and US educated or foreign born and US educated medical students.*

*This shows a typical large competative group dynamic...........the very best, maybe top 5% or 6% of foreign born and foreign educated pre-medical types are indeed very strong condidates and they prove as much as time goes by. This does not indicate that an MBBS is better than an MD, on the whole an MD is the better degree.

C). Back to your blogpost. Your author-guy clearly answers the question you posed above and frankly I've heard my son say it this way......"anyone with the grades and MCAT results to get in but not the other "requirements".......verified volunteer hours, strong recommendation letters, less than great essays , don't have verified research/internship hours, those who interview poorly, and/or suicide bidders (people with marginal CV who only apply to Baylor, Washington U., Harvard or Johns Hopkins etc.) are definitionally not qualfiied for medical school." He continues, "they are either dumb enough to think they are great without proving as much or more often simply failed to prepare.

C.1.). It seems to me from listening to my son, DIL and daughter speak about their otherwise well qualfied firends who didn't get in poor interviews are an outsized factor. One of my son's friends with a 43 (old scale MCAT = heroic score) 4.00 etc. told an interviewing faculty member at Baylor he wanted to go to medicine instead of earning a Ph.D in math becasue doctors make more money.........things like that really happen. FWIIW that kid is a tenure track math professor out west so it went OK for him.

D). Regarding your point about grades and MCAT scores. Just becasue 50% of the group have either disqualifying low grades or MCAT scores DOES NOT mean the other 50% has qualifying grades AND MCAT scores and all the other stuff. Please tell me you understand that? It does not appear so I must say.

E). The overwhleming majority of prospective students from the group that didn't get in but nearly qualified would be misrable in medical school. Depression rates and suicide contemplation rates in medical schools are already very high. Adding a bunch of marginally qualified to the group would make those numbers worse.



Sorry for the typos. I had eye surgery several days ago and my vision comes and goes - today it's mostly gone.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:47 AM
Status: "Autumn!" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,303 posts, read 108,175,538 times
Reputation: 35831
"Tortured logic", hey? I should report you for a personal attack.

I have never heard anyone else EVER claim there were not enough qualified US students to fill US med school slots. Quite the opposite in fact.

When I get back to my desktop I'll delve into your links.

Hope you're recovering well.
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