U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-17-2020, 07:36 PM
 
8,284 posts, read 4,679,664 times
Reputation: 22397

Advertisements

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...es/ar-BB196xbg

Read this today and thought it was interesting. In spite of all the claims of pushing STEM too much, the US is actually way down the list at just 18 percent.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-17-2020, 10:59 PM
Status: "Autumn!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,295 posts, read 108,168,452 times
Reputation: 35831
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...es/ar-BB196xbg

Read this today and thought it was interesting. In spite of all the claims of pushing STEM too much, the US is actually way down the list at just 18 percent.
What percentage of the population goes to college in most of those countries? Why were these countries cherry-picked? It's late and I'm going to bed now, maybe tomorrow I can look up some of the college attendance data. Adult literacy in Oman is only 86.6%. There is no compulsory education at all in Oman.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country...Oman/Education
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2020, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Shawnee-on-Delaware, PA
4,620 posts, read 4,186,101 times
Reputation: 8970
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
In spite of all the claims of pushing STEM too much, the US is actually way down the list at just 18 percent.
Quality means more than quantity. If we had 50% of students "studying STEM" then what would that really get us if the students (a) don't have aptitude for the subject matter and (b) don't have any STEM job prospects when they graduate.

There is no shortage of STEM graduates in the U.S. The reason giant corporations are importing STEM workers from India on H1-B visas is to save money, not because of a trained worker shortage.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2020, 12:44 AM
 
4,027 posts, read 1,552,169 times
Reputation: 3061
It isn’t surprising in the least. In western countries, where there is a laissez-faire approach to education, people are less inclined to pursue STEM education. In Asian countries, there is often a push from family and society to actively pursue a STEM education. Many poor families in Asian countries view STEM as a ticket out of poverty.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2020, 06:59 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
4,536 posts, read 1,753,287 times
Reputation: 10625
A couple points:

Comparisons based on % are meaningless when there is a large disparity in the basis--Would you rather have 50% of a dime or 0.001% of a $Million?

Re: choice of field-- I don't suppose there's a very big demand in Tunisia for graduates with degrees in Art History or Oriental Religion Studies.

American doctoral programs are filled with so many Asians etc because there's an excess of research money & positions available-- as opposed to US medical schools where applicants outnumber positions by a wide margin. Only 200 of 20,000 med school posts are held by foreigners. https://studentaffairs.jhu.edu/prepr....S.%20citizens.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2020, 07:54 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
26,311 posts, read 44,111,044 times
Reputation: 29964
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...es/ar-BB196xbg

Read this today and thought it was interesting. In spite of all the claims of pushing STEM too much, the US is actually way down the list at just 18 percent.
As expected. Who in the USA is capable to pursue STEM having likely exited the raving beauty of the USA K-12 conventional education system? Once pursued and conquered will the USA STEM grad be as employable / capable as an international grad?

50% of USA STEM grads leave their profession within 5 yrs. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/13/50pe...r%2035%20years.)

Room for improvement in USA starts long before choosing a STEM education.

Ironically when working in engineering recruitment and technical schools in Singapore, the nationals would say "USA STEM majors are so privileged to have access to such simple things a a garage to tinker in!, we don't even have a spare room in our HDB apartment". No workshops / hobby spaces. (But lots of music training).
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2020, 08:04 AM
 
8,284 posts, read 4,679,664 times
Reputation: 22397
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtab4994 View Post
Quality means more than quantity. If we had 50% of students "studying STEM" then what would that really get us if the students (a) don't have aptitude for the subject matter and (b) don't have any STEM job prospects when they graduate.

There is no shortage of STEM graduates in the U.S. The reason giant corporations are importing STEM workers from India on H1-B visas is to save money, not because of a trained worker shortage.
Are we getting quality? Simple reality is we are becoming less competitive in the modern world. There is no magic guarantee that the US will remain a technological leader in the future. We have to work at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
It isn’t surprising in the least. In western countries, where there is a laissez-faire approach to education, people are less inclined to pursue STEM education. In Asian countries, there is often a push from family and society to actively pursue a STEM education. Many poor families in Asian countries view STEM as a ticket out of poverty.
Yep. All you have to do is just look in the education forum for the people who argue we don't need to study algebra in high school because it's too hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
A couple points:

Comparisons based on % are meaningless when there is a large disparity in the basis--Would you rather have 50% of a dime or 0.001% of a $Million?

Re: choice of field-- I don't suppose there's a very big demand in Tunisia for graduates with degrees in Art History or Oriental Religion Studies.

American doctoral programs are filled with so many Asians etc because there's an excess of research money & positions available-- as opposed to US medical schools where applicants outnumber positions by a wide margin. Only 200 of 20,000 med school posts are held by foreigners. https://studentaffairs.jhu.edu/prepr....S.%20citizens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
What percentage of the population goes to college in most of those countries? Why were these countries cherry-picked? It's late and I'm going to bed now, maybe tomorrow I can look up some of the college attendance data. Adult literacy in Oman is only 86.6%. There is no compulsory education at all in Oman.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country...Oman/Education
I'd rather have 50% of a million. Ya'll are missing the point. It's not about total numbers but about what each country is doing with what they have.

The data aren't cherry picked; that's just what they happen to be. BTW, the US literacy rate is about 79% (https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp). And we do have compulsory education.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2020, 08:38 AM
 
10,347 posts, read 10,633,787 times
Reputation: 9303
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
As expected. Who in the USA is capable to pursue STEM having likely exited the raving beauty of the USA K-12 conventional education system? Once pursued and conquered will the USA STEM grad be as employable / capable as an international grad?

50% of USA STEM grads leave their profession within 5 yrs. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/13/50pe...r%2035%20years.)

Room for improvement in USA starts long before choosing a STEM education.

Ironically when working in engineering recruitment and technical schools in Singapore, the nationals would say "USA STEM majors are so privileged to have access to such simple things a a garage to tinker in!, we don't even have a spare room in our HDB apartment". No workshops / hobby spaces. (But lots of music training).
Your claim that 50% of STEM grads leave their profession in 5 years is wrong. Your article, which is really pretty stupid on its face, says that 50% of academic scientists leave their space within five years - and that its a revolving door back and forth.

I'll give you a perfect example of this. An aquantance, white guy MD from West Texas FWIIW, runs a top surgical residency program somewhere here in The US. This guy has been at various times in pure research, academics and clinical/surgical medicine, often more than one area at once.. Moving from say medical research to surgery isn't leaving the profession. My son who is a lowly surgical resident is in the middle of years long research project he jumped into as an MS-1........he's taking a 3mos. block to work on the research exclusively.......he's not leaving the field either.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2020, 11:16 AM
 
Location: NYC
17,630 posts, read 11,232,617 times
Reputation: 21092
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...es/ar-BB196xbg

Read this today and thought it was interesting. In spite of all the claims of pushing STEM too much, the US is actually way down the list at just 18 percent.
The 1st thing a lot of STEM graduates do in America is trying to become a manager at a company sooner than later. I became the manager too early with a degree in STEM but I had to learn how to become a manager then I had to learn the trade. I was making a lot of mistakes on both areas due to the lack of experience on both areas. Once you become a manager it's very difficult to transition back to a subject matter expert in the area. Then again once you become an expert you wouldn't want to be a manager either and lose out on your passion.

The biggest problem I see for young STEM graduates is setting their expectations for salary too high or too low. You should get make a good salary at a good company but don't get caught up in that salary jump expectations without producing some meaningful results personally. Just because a company does great doesn't mean you should automatically ask for a bigger raise each time. Eventually it will set yourself up for failure. I've seen people rose to the top and eventually get kicked once your peers realized that your utility at the company is not conducive to the culture or producing results.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2020, 12:46 PM
Status: "Autumn!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,295 posts, read 108,168,452 times
Reputation: 35831
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Are we getting quality? Simple reality is we are becoming less competitive in the modern world. There is no magic guarantee that the US will remain a technological leader in the future. We have to work at it.



Yep. All you have to do is just look in the education forum for the people who argue we don't need to study algebra in high school because it's too hard.





I'd rather have 50% of a million. Ya'll are missing the point. It's not about total numbers but about what each country is doing with what they have.

The data aren't cherry picked; that's just what they happen to be. BTW, the US literacy rate is about 79% (https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp). And we do have compulsory education.
Oh, no it's not. From your link: "Four in five U.S. adults (79 percent) have English literacy skills sufficient to complete tasks that require comparing and contrasting information, paraphrasing, or making low-level inferences—literacy skills at level 2 or above in PIAAC (OECD 2013)." That's a definition of advanced literacy.

Literacy rate US: 99%
https://www.macrotrends.net/countrie.../literacy-rate

And yes, the data are cherry picked. They didn't include China, for example, because "UNESCO did not publish data for China. In 2016, the World Economic Forum said that China actually produced 4.7 million STEM graduates a year, which would exceed India’s number by a large margin. Yet, according to the National Science Foundation, China classifies engineering and science fields quite broadly, leading to a lack of comparability in the data. The U.S. government agency counted 1.6 million Chinese science and engineering graduates in 2014."

In point of fact, probably all these countries classify STEM a little differently, making absolute comparisons difficult. That's the way it is with health statistics as well. (My area of expertise) Remember the "French Paradox"-all these French people smoking and drinking all their adult lives and yet having lower incidence of heart disease? Turned out to be underrporting, or according to some of my health related journals at the time this all came out, different defintions. Heck, here in the US health care isn't considered STEM.
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1999/08...1826935985600/

And why is it so great that some of these developing countries have so many STEM graduates, out of the few students that go to college there? I think Milky Way Resident and guidoLaMoto got it right.

“I am a warrior, so that my son may be a merchant, so that his son may be a poet.” John Quincy Adams
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/595...-my-son-may-be

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 09-19-2020 at 01:02 PM.. Reason: Duplicate sentence due to editing
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top