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Being educated should be about more than just memorizing a bunch of rote facts and then coughing them up. If students are measured using only memorization and recall, then that incentivizes teachers to teach this method. Particularly in the 21st century when a lot of things can be Googled, rote fact memorization is more useless than it has ever been. There is a lot more value in being able to deliberate about the information available, solve problems, and make decisions under uncertainty, versus just memorizing and coughing things back up.
Again, how are teacher-written tests any different? Again, standardized tests mean everybody taking the same flawed test.
c. Many of the "pick the most correct" type questions depend on the student interpreting the question the same way the test writer did. Different interpretation can lead to a different answer. A good example of this was after i left the service I took the Praxis test. A lot of the questions were of the "pick the most correct" variety. On quite a few questions I had specific expertise from my time in the service where I knew what the actual correct answer was. And also knew there was a generally accepted, but technically wrong answer. So my dilemma was which to pick: the technically correct, but not popularly understood answers or the technically wrong, but popular answer. I solved that dilemma by asking myself "what would a teacher teach in school?" then selected all the technically wrong answers. Aced the test. A good example of that kind of question is "how does an airplane generate lift?" The most common answers in school textbooks are wrong.
Again, I’ve had the same problem with teacher-written tests. To give two examples:
1. In my 9th grade Italian class, we had an exam where we had to choose which word doesn’t fit with the other two. For one question, the choices were high school, high school student, and college. A valid case can be made for either high school student, or college. The one I chose was not the one she wanted, and it was marked wrong. When I made the argument in favor of my answer, I was just told “life isn’t fair”. Why aren’t kids who underperform on standardized tests just told that “life isn’t fair”?
2. In 3rd grade, we learned about how each calendar date advances one day of the week each year. We had a bonus question to figure out what day of the week 4th of July will fall on the upcoming summer. This was the 1987-88s school year. 1988 was a leap year, so every day advanced 2 days, rather than 1, and I knew that, even though it had not been taught yet. We had to remember that 4th of July was a Saturday in 1987, which I did remember. So, I answered Monday for 4th of July in 1988, which was the correct answer. However, it was marked wrong, since the answer the teacher wanted was Sunday, since we were supposed to think it only advanced one day. I made my argument that I knew about leap year, but it was not accepted, saying I could not have possibly known about leap year.
That is all true. But how are teacher-written tests any different? Again, standardized testing at least means everybody taking the same flawed test. Grades are basically random.
You seem to think it's an either/or choice. There are myriad ways of assessing progress better than written examinations. However they're more difficult to administer and need more highly skilled and observant staff.
Written exams are just the lowest common denominator that's been handed out as a panacea to measure subject knowledge or potential. However after a couple of decades in lead and management roles whose responsibilities included people growth, they prove nothing, and are often misleading. I spend a lot of time a week working with people who have an intrinsic desire to develop themselves, and we set goals, and track to those goals. I provide feedback and opportunities. It's hard, but, it works and provides significantly better perspectives about those people, their abilities and potential.
Standardized written testing is pseudoscience at best, complete bunk at worst. Tailored written testing to the student is marginally better. However to significantly improve education would require a complete rethink on its delivery and staffing.
Standardized tests are biased. They don't truly measure what someone knows, and I'm glad that many colleges & universities are getting away from them. I did well on my SAT & ACT, but I still don't like standardized tests. Some of you need to get your head out of the clouds. The biggest group that standardized testing affects are those with learning disabilities.
You seem to think it's an either/or choice. There are myriad ways of assessing progress better than written examinations. However they're more difficult to administer and need more highly skilled and observant staff.
Written exams are just the lowest common denominator that's been handed out as a panacea to measure subject knowledge or potential. However after a couple of decades in lead and management roles whose responsibilities included people growth, they prove nothing, and are often misleading. I spend a lot of time a week working with people who have an intrinsic desire to develop themselves, and we set goals, and track to those goals. I provide feedback and opportunities. It's hard, but, it works and provides significantly better perspectives about those people, their abilities and potential.
Standardized written testing is pseudoscience at best, complete bunk at worst. Tailored written testing to the student is marginally better. However to significantly improve education would require a complete rethink on its delivery and staffing.
You have good points. I guess my question is, why is there so much pressure to get rid of standardized testing, but no pressure to force some type of uniform grading policies by teachers?
Standardized tests are biased. They don't truly measure what someone knows, and I'm glad that many colleges & universities are getting away from them. I did well on my SAT & ACT, but I still don't like standardized tests. Some of you need to get your head out of the clouds. The biggest group that standardized testing affects are those with learning disabilities.
Teachers are biased. They don’t truly measure what someone knows.
You have good points. I guess my question is, why is there so much pressure to get rid of standardized testing, but no pressure to force some type of uniform grading policies by teachers?
You seem to be saying that it's six of one, half-dozen of the other.
Fair enough.
Perhaps a better question is, how can a mass system take into account the uniqueness of every individual?
It can't. Can it?
And perhaps that's why, in the US at least, there are myriad education jurisdictions, approaches, curricula, teaching styles, and school types, including homeschools and online schools.
Options, options, options.
For better and for worse.
Standardized testing is just one tool, a blunt tool, in a vast and diversified tool box.
I'm going to try to unpack all this. I wish CD kept the original quote. In a series of replies, the original gets lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
But which teacher you get can also be gamed. Like I said, at my high school, whether or not you got into an Ivy League school basically came down to whether you had the easy or hard AP bio teacher. Some students would game the system by signing up for an elective that conflicted with the hard teacher’s class. I touched it out with the hard teacher, and I got screwed.
'''?
Yes, students and their parents can game the GPA. But you know what? A couple years down the road, doesn't mean jack. Yes, there's a success difference between the top 10% and bottom 10%, but within each range, not much.
It's seriously unlikely that one teacher in high school would make a difference between Ivy and not Ivy college. Simply because so many indeterminate factors that you have no control over go into a college acceptance. College acceptance is a completely different issue. Heck, my youngest was accepted by both reach schools and is attending one of the hardest to get into schools in the country, yet was rejected by two in the zone schools. Figure that one out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
...
That is true, but teacher-written exams have the same problem. Standardized tests at least have everybody taking the same “unfair” exam. But focusing on grades is basically random.
...
The big difference is scale and scope. A test by a teacher only impacts those in that class, not the whole country. Plus that single test in that class is only on the material in that class and is only one of the items that makes up the overall grade for that class. Have an off day there and you can make it up. Consistency is more important than a one day test.
Now a separate issue is whether the grading system makes sense. In that there are a lot more possible bad scores than good ones, so it's easier for a single grade to pull the score down than a good grade to pull the score up. EG, a 98 will bring a 93 average up by much, but a 30 will bring it way down. But that's a different issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
...
No, but which teacher you get is basically a random lottery. Would you use a single random lottery to determine the strength of a material? If you want to argue that college admissions should just be a random lottery, then that’s a different issue.
...?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I would use a random lottery when testing materials. Randomization is a key tenant of Experimental Design. It helps to tease out the actual data from some of the experimental errors. More tests from more teachers over a greater period of time provides a more consistent picture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
...
But how is that any different from teacher-written tests?
Since CD doesn't copy the original, I'm including a summary here for context: This question is referring to tests by individual teachers aren't major life events, unlike tests like the SAT, ACT, GRE, etc.
So in response to the question, it's different because the impact is different. One test by teacher may be individually unfair, but it doesn't have the same impact as most standardized tests where often have a high stakes component to them. The SAT for example can impact college acceptance and potentially scholarships. But the 4th week quiz in Mrs Magilicuddy's 9th grade English class won't. It's been washed out and subsumed within the overall high school performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Again, I’ve had the same problem with teacher-written tests. To give two examples:
1. In my 9th grade Italian class, we had an exam where we had to choose which word doesn’t fit with the other two. For one question, the choices were high school, high school student, and college. A valid case can be made for either high school student, or college. The one I chose was not the one she wanted, and it was marked wrong. When I made the argument in favor of my answer, I was just told “life isn’t fair”. Why aren’t kids who underperform on standardized tests just told that “life isn’t fair”?
2. In 3rd grade, we learned about how each calendar date advances one day of the week each year. We had a bonus question to figure out what day of the week 4th of July will fall on the upcoming summer. This was the 1987-88s school year. 1988 was a leap year, so every day advanced 2 days, rather than 1, and I knew that, even though it had not been taught yet. We had to remember that 4th of July was a Saturday in 1987, which I did remember. So, I answered Monday for 4th of July in 1988, which was the correct answer. However, it was marked wrong, since the answer the teacher wanted was Sunday, since we were supposed to think it only advanced one day. I made my argument that I knew about leap year, but it was not accepted, saying I could not have possibly known about leap year.
Here's the thing. While most of us remember incidents like that because of the sheer unfairness of it, they simply just don't matter in terms of success and failure in life. I remember incidents like that too. The biggest lesson I learned from it was what to tell my kids when they experienced the same thing: "Just remember, in a few years you'll be an engineer making double what she's making, and she'll still be wrong."
You seem to think it's an either/or choice. There are myriad ways of assessing progress better than written examinations. However they're more difficult to administer and need more highly skilled and observant staff.
Written exams are just the lowest common denominator that's been handed out as a panacea to measure subject knowledge or potential. However after a couple of decades in lead and management roles whose responsibilities included people growth, they prove nothing, and are often misleading. I spend a lot of time a week working with people who have an intrinsic desire to develop themselves, and we set goals, and track to those goals. I provide feedback and opportunities. It's hard, but, it works and provides significantly better perspectives about those people, their abilities and potential.
Standardized written testing is pseudoscience at best, complete bunk at worst. Tailored written testing to the student is marginally better. However to significantly improve education would require a complete rethink on its delivery and staffing.
a. They can be gamed. There is a method to how standardized tests are designed and students who are coached on "how to take standardized tests" can raise their score significantly. Not that they actually know more or are smarter, but that they've been coached on tricks. Even our local elementary schools spend a significant amount of time on "how to take the test" rather than on learning the material.
b. They are tailor made for "teaching to the test." This leads a lot of schools to focus on what is tested rather than what the kids need to know. Let's say a subject requires you to know topics A, B, C, D, E, and F. The test however primarily focuses on topics A, C, and D. The school will spend most of their time on A, C, and D, while minimizing time on B, E, and F. During part of my career I worked as a SME to a course development effort. It started with designing the assessment, the "test" if you will, then designed the course to teach what was on the test. All of us who acted as SMEs were frustrated about how much material was left out because it wasn't going to be tested.
c. Many of the "pick the most correct" type questions depend on the student interpreting the question the same way the test writer did. Different interpretation can lead to a different answer. A good example of this was after i left the service I took the Praxis test. A lot of the questions were of the "pick the most correct" variety. On quite a few questions I had specific expertise from my time in the service where I knew what the actual correct answer was. And also knew there was a generally accepted, but technically wrong answer. So my dilemma was which to pick: the technically correct, but not popularly understood answers or the technically wrong, but popular answer. I solved that dilemma by asking myself "what would a teacher teach in school?" then selected all the technically wrong answers. Aced the test. A good example of that kind of question is "how does an airplane generate lift?" The most common answers in school textbooks are wrong.
d. A standardized test is one data point when it comes to individual students. While it may be somewhat statistically valid across a population, we tend to use standardized tests to predict individual capabilities. As an engineer, would you use one data point to determine the strength of a material?
e. In terms of "fairness" most tests don't tend to be major life events. But tests like the SAT, GRE, and others can determine your whole life by expanding or limiting your options based on that one test. It's those high stakes that make the fairness issue more crucial.
So how do we measure the performance of schools without standardized tests?
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