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Old 04-09-2021, 04:28 AM
 
31,588 posts, read 26,430,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The reason high school curriculums were watered down was because not everyone is cut out for the academic load of a robust college-prep curriculum. Many high schools had eliminated vocational curricula, and they didn't want to fail half or more of every class, so they had to water down the "college prep" curricula.

In reality, however, to this day no more than 35% of high school graduates ever get a bachelor's degree...and that even with watered down bachelor's degrees. Most kids know by the end of the ninth grade whether they want to go on to college.

What that remaining 65% really needed was a robust tech-prep education. Not a vocational education, but a curriculum heavy and vigorous in algebra and plane geometry, technical reading, technical writing, applied sciences (electronics, hydraulics, mechanics, building sciences), small business administration and law, and more algebra and plane geometry. Also more algebra and plane geometry. They they would be graduated with a solid foundation to continue any avenue of more advanced technical training.

As it is, a lot of schools are not graduating students with solid preparation for college, and very few with solid preparation for further technical training.
Years ago most public high school systems in USA had two tracks; college bound and vocational or whatever.

Democrats, liberals and other usual suspects derided such tracks as racist and everything else bad they could call them, so vocational was eliminated or changed. It also was the rise of basically turning all public high schools into having a focus on college bound prep. Sadly this just doesn't and hasn't worked.

Further proof of this mess can be seen in vast amount of college loan debt taken on by students who had no business going to college in first place.

Kids can graduate in the lowest percentile of their high school class, are motivated as a stone at bottom of sea, and generally are thick as planks, but some college either four or two year will take them. And why not? They're guaranteed federal and often state student aid (including those loans) for at least first year. This will last until they either flunk out or get placed on academic probation which causes all that free money to end.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:23 AM
 
1,830 posts, read 1,342,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportslover View Post
People act like working in a trade is the greatest job in the world. Then why do so few people want to do it then? Why doesn’t society push going into trade school rather than going into college ?
It’s not so much that it’s touted as the “greatest job in the world” so much as that there is a renewed recognition of its importance as a viable career option for some kids, for whom it is a better fit than the more academically focused college route.

This a mainly as a result of the fallout of previously mistaken policies that focused almost exclusively on the college route for all kids, regardless of whether it is the best for all of them, skills and interest wise. As a result, many kids who would have been better served in their education and career guidance found out the hard way that they were ill-suited for the college-track careers. This led to young adults being severely underemployed or unemployed, and now saddled with seemingly insurmountable student loan debts that if they can not repay, which will ultimately be passed on to every taxpayer. Terrible unintended consequences of a terrible educational policy.

So now, we are in a period of correction hence the renewed focus on vocational education as a viable alternative for students looking for a career/job post-secondary education. More individualized, tailored education and career focus. It’s an ongoing effort as society and the economy undergoes constant changes.

In my kids’ school district, this is not only formally recognized in the student curricula that is offered, but a third track of military careers is also recognized.

The more choices a child and their parents are made aware of, the better the chance to match the student to the best fit career for them. And vocational education leading to trade jobs is a major route.

But I think it will be faced with some resistance by some parents for whom it carries a certain stigma and lack of societal prestige. Consequently the may continue to push their kid into a career track ill-fitted for them, with potentially disastrous results. Hence, there needs to be a PR campaign of sorts by society to overcome this misplaced stigma and do what’s best for each kid, whose needs may be better served with a career in the trades.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:29 AM
 
16,979 posts, read 21,620,378 times
Reputation: 29053
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Here's the deal with medicine and perhaps nursing along with some other professions including law.

People push themselves and or are pushed by others to persue their *dream*, even if this means going to some lower tier school and or have suspect grades and so forth. When they graduate even after passing licensing exams no one will touch them. So they end up working at lower rungs of said profession if they can find anything at all.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/19/h...y-doctors.html

Young people watch programs like L.A. Law, or Boston Legal and believe getting a law degree and being admitted to bar is key to some sort of high end lifestyle.
Again TV influencing peoples CAREERS!

My sister in law is an attorney, she got hired by the biggest firm in the state. Money sounded great but it was a grind, 55 billable hours a week, no ifs, ands or buts! Miss that 55 hours a week/2750 a year and no bonus and then they are "on you to bump up the hours"

She liked the experience but wasn't dreaming of working there for 30 years. She got hired as in house counsel, strong money and less stress BUT probably has reached a plateau as far as earnings unless the company grows significantly.

Some vocational schools are pitching nursing careers but with no bachelors degrees from an accredited college the nursing grads are not going to get hired by hospitals.

Plenty of traffic ticket type lawyers that are essentially making average wages, not settling multi-million dollar cases/living the high life. There are low level doctors (pediatricians vs. say orthopedic) also making a decent wage but not killing it like their counterpart.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:34 AM
 
1,830 posts, read 1,342,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by City Guy997S View Post
Again TV influencing peoples CAREERS!

My sister in law is an attorney, she got hired by the biggest firm in the state. Money sounded great but it was a grind, 55 billable hours a week, no ifs, ands or buts! Miss that 55 hours a week/2750 a year and no bonus and then they are "on you to bump up the hours"

She liked the experience but wasn't dreaming of working there for 30 years. She got hired as in house counsel, strong money and less stress BUT probably has reached a plateau as far as earnings unless the company grows significantly.

Some vocational schools are pitching nursing careers but with no bachelors degrees from an accredited college the nursing grads are not going to get hired by hospitals.

Plenty of traffic ticket type lawyers that are essentially making average wages, not settling multi-million dollar cases/living the high life. There are low level doctors (pediatricians vs. say orthopedic) also making a decent wage but not killing it like their counterpart.
They need to bring back career day, where people actually working in those fields talk about both the good and bad aspects of their jobs to dispel these notions. Every career/job has pluses and negatives and, students need to select them with their eyes wide open.

Also, what are the career guidance counselors doing?
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:49 AM
 
16,979 posts, read 21,620,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobaba View Post
And a lot of them get it too!
I've had 4 employees graduate from college, 0 of 4 got a job at 60K even though all 4 had that expectation!

Bachelors degrees:

Biology- 22K offer at a national laboratory
Graphic Design- 24K job at a local ad agency, quit after a week
Economics- hired by brokerage firm 40K year but needs to relocate to the midwest
Political Science- Costco, $13 an hour stocking shelves.

The latter two were 2020 graduates.

Where I feel all four failed, ZERO internships.

I had another short term employee graduate from a state fire academy......which is also pumping these kids heads full of fantasies. Kid was dead average, definitely on the lazier side side of the scale (not good for a fireman career). The fire academy was telling tales of 57K hiring salaries (at prime departments, what they don't mention is the very high standards they were looking for also) and working basically 8 days a month with 5 "Kelly days" off per month. So this kid thinks he will be drinking at the sandbar for 22+ days a month, making $57,000 while working (or sleeping at the fire house) 8 days a month.

Well reality is here: He graduated a year ago, 3 dept interviews and NOT A SINGLE OFFER OF EMPLOYMENT! He is sitting on his mom's couch waiting for the phone to ring.......
He is a white male with average scores.........the highest paying departments want the highest test scores and love to have well rounded representation (meaning minorities and women). This kid could get hired tomorrow at a department in a rough area (ghetto) but he would probably make 40K a year and work his absolute azz off with drug overdoses/violent crimes which is common in those areas.

A neighbors kid took the same route but upon graduation he went to work for a private security company in a wealthy neighborhood as a private paramedic (basically do nothing but ride around in a Ford Explorer and wait for an old lady to slip in the shower/break a hip). He worked that for 5-6 months (decent pay too) until he got hired by the county. He did get an offer from a premium department but it came a week after he already accepted a position with the county, so he stuck to his commitment and stayed with the county job. I would consider that private security gig a paid internship which made him look more appealing to hiring departments.
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Old 04-09-2021, 09:11 AM
 
12,581 posts, read 8,812,545 times
Reputation: 34405
Quote:
Originally Posted by mingna View Post
They need to bring back career day, where people actually working in those fields talk about both the good and bad aspects of their jobs to dispel these notions. Every career/job has pluses and negatives and, students need to select them with their eyes wide open.

Also, what are the career guidance counselors doing?
I doubt guidance counselors can give any advice beyond hand the kid a list of local colleges and $500 scholarships sponsored by the PTA. They really don't know anything about either careers or the education/training needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by City Guy997S View Post
I've had 4 employees graduate from college, 0 of 4 got a job at 60K even though all 4 had that expectation!

Bachelors degrees:

Biology- 22K offer at a national laboratory
Graphic Design- 24K job at a local ad agency, quit after a week
Economics- hired by brokerage firm 40K year but needs to relocate to the midwest
Political Science- Costco, $13 an hour stocking shelves.

The latter two were 2020 graduates.

Where I feel all four failed, ZERO internships.

.....
Seems like it's more than internships they lacked from the description. Though I really wonder about the Biology making only $22 at a national lab. Low end of the GS scale for a BS is $35k. $22k is internships level.

What colleges did they go to?
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Old 04-09-2021, 11:37 AM
 
1,830 posts, read 1,342,198 times
Reputation: 2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I doubt guidance counselors can give any advice beyond hand the kid a list of local colleges and $500 scholarships sponsored by the PTA. They really don't know anything about either careers or the education/training needed.

It does not require much time to look through a student’s transcript, ask them a few questions about skills and life and job goals, then steer them in a general direction ( college, vocational, military).

Otherwise, what are they being paid to do?
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:23 PM
 
7,123 posts, read 3,947,096 times
Reputation: 16263
Quote:
Originally Posted by mingna View Post
It does not require much time to look through a student’s transcript, ask them a few questions about skills and life and job goals, then steer them in a general direction ( college, vocational, military).

Otherwise, what are they being paid to do?
What they are paid for (1) keep the high schools ratings on websites by (2) helping their top students into Ivy League schools and by (3) get the sports players into good rated college teams. This creates good press, keeps the parents happy, and justify high taxes. Guidance counselors also spent a good amount of time courting college admission recruiters.

There was a time in this country when a person with a high school diploma could get a factory job. It was possible to support a family on a factory wages. It was also possible to work one's way into management based on experience rather than a college degree.

When we shipped those overseas, "the powers that be" assumed the whole country would be involved in intellectual (vs physical) labor such as consultancy, training and STEM. Therefore, the federal government began guaranteeing student loans.

The only winners were the corporation who sent jobs overseas to increase their profits. Great if you are an investor and pretty horrible for our country.
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:30 PM
 
1,830 posts, read 1,342,198 times
Reputation: 2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
What they are paid for (1) keep the high schools ratings on websites by (2) helping their top students into Ivy League schools and by (3) get the sports players into good rated college teams. This creates good press, keeps the parents happy, and justify high taxes. Guidance counselors also spent a good amount of time courting college admission recruiters.

There was a time in this country when a person with a high school diploma could get a factory job. It was possible to support a family on a factory wages. It was also possible to work one's way into management based on experience rather than a college degree.

When we shipped those overseas, "the powers that be" assumed the whole country would be involved in intellectual (vs physical) labor such as consultancy, training and STEM. Therefore, the federal government began guaranteeing student loans.

The only winners were the corporation who sent jobs overseas to increase their profits. Great if you are an investor and pretty horrible for our country.
And predatory lenders. And unscrupulous and questionable for-profit and non-profit colleges. Lots of wolves fed at the trough.
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Old 04-09-2021, 01:33 PM
 
9,952 posts, read 6,569,727 times
Reputation: 19649
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
What they are paid for (1) keep the high schools ratings on websites by (2) helping their top students into Ivy League schools and by (3) get the sports players into good rated college teams. This creates good press, keeps the parents happy, and justify high taxes. Guidance counselors also spent a good amount of time courting college admission recruiters.

There was a time in this country when a person with a high school diploma could get a factory job. It was possible to support a family on a factory wages. It was also possible to work one's way into management based on experience rather than a college degree.

When we shipped those overseas, "the powers that be" assumed the whole country would be involved in intellectual (vs physical) labor such as consultancy, training and STEM. Therefore, the federal government began guaranteeing student loans.

The only winners were the corporation who sent jobs overseas to increase their profits. Great if you are an investor and pretty horrible for our country.
Newsflash, guidance counselors are NOT just to help kids get into college. All schools should have guidance counselors, even elementary and middle schools. I had a yoga instructor whose main day job was a middle school counselor, and she dealt more with classroom-related issues and drama. They may also be involved in IEP planning and other similar activities which are required at all levels. In many schools, you may have more students who have an IEP or additional educational needs than students who are college bound.
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