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Old 08-04-2021, 03:22 PM
 
4,624 posts, read 2,160,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I think the suggestion is that trade school is a good alternative for people who may not have done so well academically.

If you performed average or below in school, then you’re probably not college material. But you still have to make a living somehow, right?
I think the baby boomers have a lot of influence over this viewpoint, and when you think about it it makes sense. Graduating from high school things like an auto mechanic or a repairman were not highly paid jobs. That has changed. Also when the baby boomers were in graduating high school college was out of rage for a lot of people and I'm sure a lot of people wanted to go that couldn't. And now it's available to anyone who wants to.
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Old 08-04-2021, 03:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Why would anyone want someone who didn't do well in school to be working on their plumbing or electrical system?
because fixing plumbing doesn't require a psych degree. When I hire a tradesman I don't ever look at their academic achievements because I don't care it's how good their skills are that matters. Being able to diagram a sentence or know the exact date of which some historical event happened would not be a skill necessary to repair plumbing.
Quote:
Those are not specialties for simpletons or the lazy. There's a lot of math involved in the electrician trade and construction in general.
Why does not doing well in school Mean lazy? I don't care if the guy fixing my AC graduated with honors. I don't care if you graduated at all. Official repair the AC properly that's what I care about. I don't think it's lazy not to do well at school. I just think certain people don't do well at school.
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Old 08-04-2021, 06:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrigby View Post
You can make really good money in a trade, my thoughts on it is society doesn't push the trades because they're looked down on. People who go to trade school will learn a lot about their trade but not much else. So they aren't considered well-rounded and sophisticated. The jobs you go into our blue collar which do require a lot of brain power but they also require some Braun and some tactile skill which is also looked down upon.

Then you have the trade schools themselves. There are some really good ones out there where you can learn a lot about what your trade is but then there are some that are when I call certificate farms. Private trade schools are exorbitantly expensive. And they don't do a good job helping the people they teach gain the skills.

If you go to a public trade school or even a community college it's cheaper. And sometimes not requiring anything like that student loan.


Then you have tradesmen there is a perception of them being less sophisticated rubes. And I think this is mostly because they didn't take philosophy classes and whatnot when they're gaining their skills they might not have you been taking any official class. Some trades you can drop out of high school and still be successful.

Our society for whatever reason and I've got a notion on the reason if you're interested places academia on a pedestal and I don't necessarily think that's wrong per se but the result is not promoting these sorts of jobs that we need people for and that can be very lucrative.

Right after I graduated high school my doctor told me don't go to medical school don't go to college due to trade school to be an HVAC technician.
Something to remember in this conversation: Only 25-30 percent of Americans have ever gotten bachelor's degrees. Despite all the "college is everything" pushing that's gone on for the last 40 or so years, most people have not gotten bachelor's degrees.

And the sad thing is that because society has disparaged trade and technical occupations for 40 years, most people wind up not getting that training, either, at least not right out of high school. Maybe some of them will wander into it later.

Most high schools have abandoned any kind of vocational/technical curriculum in favor of offering only a "college prep" curriculum even though they know 75% of high school kids will never get a bachelor's degree.

But it gets worse. Most kids would not be graduated if the schools pushed the robust curricula that would truly prepare a kid for college, so schools wind up with a half-assed college prep curriculum that most kids take (the ones truly preparing for college are taking the AP courses), so most kids don't get a robust tech-prep curriculum or a robust college-prep curriculum. They spend 12 years in school without an education that would truly prepare them for college or technical training.

Back in the 90s, the governor of Hawaii compared the Hawaii high school curriculum to the occupations actually available in Hawaii and stated bluntly, "We're wasting our kids' time, and they know it."

What would a tech-prep high school curriculum look like? I'm not talking about "vo-tech" where the high school trains kids for specific trades. I'm talking about spending two or three years giving kids a thorough foundation in basic applied science and mathematics that would prepare them for any kind of advanced technical training. Technical reading, technical writing, algebra and plane geometry every year, small business mathematics and administration, small business law and codes, electronic and electrical concepts and applications, building science, mechanical concepts and applications, hydraulic concepts and applications, more algebra and plane geometry, et cetera.
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Old 08-04-2021, 06:23 PM
 
28,559 posts, read 18,560,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Why would anyone want someone who didn't do well in school to be working on their plumbing or electrical system? Those are not specialties for simpletons or the lazy. There's a lot of math involved in the electrician trade and construction in general.
Most likely the reason that person didn't do well in school is because the school was pushing a college prep curriculum and that person had determined in the ninth grade that they didn't intend to go to college. If they had the option of a robust high school education that would prepare them for advanced technical training, they'd likely have paid more attention.

Only 25-30 percent of kids ever wind up with a bachelor's degree, and that figure includes Millennials.
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Old 08-04-2021, 07:00 PM
 
4,624 posts, read 2,160,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Something to remember in this conversation: Only 25-30 percent of Americans have ever gotten bachelor's degrees. Despite all the "college is everything" pushing that's gone on for the last 40 or so years, most people have not gotten bachelor's degrees.

And the sad thing is that because society has disparaged trade and technical occupations for 40 years, most people wind up not getting that training, either, at least not right out of high school. Maybe some of them will wander into it later.
I really think that that's because teachers tend to get bachelor's degrees not that teaching is a bad profession it's a great one. But it's not something everyone can do.

I think the idea of why they push four year university it's because they see that as the Pinnacle and if they push it more people will strive for it the problem is it's not all it was cracked up to be 40 years ago. And the cost has skyrocketed to the point where really nobody can afford it without financial aid.

People go by that average people who have a college degree will make more money on average than people who don't and this is what I consider deceit in averages all you really need is three or four billionaires to throw off average.

I remember being told how University is the only way to go and how it's the magic golden key to a brighter future and I found out that it wasn't. Luckily I didn't take much debt figuring that out.
Quote:
Most high schools have abandoned any kind of vocational/technical curriculum in favor of offering only a "college prep" curriculum even though they know 75% of high school kids will never get a bachelor's degree.

But it gets worse. Most kids would not be graduated if the schools pushed the robust curricula that would truly prepare a kid for college, so schools wind up with a half-assed college prep curriculum that most kids take (the ones truly preparing for college are taking the AP courses), so most kids don't get a robust tech-prep curriculum or a robust college-prep curriculum. They spend 12 years in school without an education that would truly prepare them for college or technical training.

Back in the 90s, the governor of Hawaii compared the Hawaii high school curriculum to the occupations actually available in Hawaii and stated bluntly, "We're wasting our kids' time, and they know it."

What would a tech-prep high school curriculum look like? I'm not talking about "vo-tech" where the high school trains kids for specific trades. I'm talking about spending two or three years giving kids a thorough foundation in basic applied science and mathematics that would prepare them for any kind of advanced technical training. Technical reading, technical writing, algebra and plane geometry every year, small business mathematics and administration, small business law and codes, electronic and electrical concepts and applications, building science, mechanical concepts and applications, hydraulic concepts and applications, more algebra and plane geometry, et cetera.
Trades are looked down upon because to do them you sweat and a lot of the times you're outside. And a lot of the times you're dirty.

But this is the engine of our economy.

I like the idea that anyone who wants to go to college can that's great and we shouldn't get rid of that. But the idea that everyone must go to college or they're going to do something where they're sweaty and dirty and bad is rather primitive.
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Old 08-04-2021, 07:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I don't disagree, but I think the education trend was more pushing business rather than being pulled along. In many places business began to add college as a requirement because high school had become so watered down that a high school diploma didn't mean the same as it had in the past. It seems the AA or in some cases, the BA became the new high school diploma, while the BS still carried some weight.
Let's not forget that since the 70s the country has developed an education industry that is connected at the waist to the banking industry.
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Old 08-04-2021, 07:09 PM
 
28,559 posts, read 18,560,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankrigby View Post

Trades are looked down upon because to do them you sweat and a lot of the times you're outside. And a lot of the times you're dirty.

But this is the engine of our economy.

I like the idea that anyone who wants to go to college can that's great and we shouldn't get rid of that. But the idea that everyone must go to college or they're going to do something where they're sweaty and dirty and bad is rather primitive.
It's not just the traditional trades that are losing out, though. By concentrating on college prep curricula, high schools are not preparing kids for technological occupations either.

Computer programming doesn't truly require a bachelor's degree. It's really more of a trade than a profession.

Last edited by Ralph_Kirk; 08-04-2021 at 08:16 PM..
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Old 08-04-2021, 08:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinque View Post
I have noticed that in the past 5 of so years that there has been more of a focus on trades in schools and it is presented as a viable career option at least in the KY and TN school districts that I am familiar with.

One thing that some people don't seem to grasp is that jobs in the trades may not require the traditional four year route but they do require critical thinking, some solid math/science/engineering skills, and a strong work ethic. As time goes on more technology is probably going to equal more training and even more skills for the trades. These are not for the folks who skip class and want to fart around and do drugs or for those who think this is an easy way out of college.
I have said earlier that a tech-prep curriculum should be two or three years giving kids a thorough foundation in basic applied science and mathematics that would prepare them for any kind of advanced technical training. Technical reading, technical writing, algebra and plane geometry every year, small business mathematics and administration, small business law and codes, electronic and electrical concepts and applications, building science, mechanical concepts and applications, hydraulic concepts and applications, more algebra and plane geometry, et cetera.
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Old 08-04-2021, 09:42 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,433 posts, read 3,695,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Most kids need to be going to advanced technical training (and they needed to have gotten the basics of that in high school). The country has been going the wrong way pushing college for everyone, and the education industry hasn't figured that out yet.
'Promoting education' as a whole is not the same as 'pushing college' or steering anyone away from technical training.
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Old 08-04-2021, 09:46 PM
 
28,559 posts, read 18,560,412 times
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Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
'Promoting education' as a whole is not the same as 'pushing college' or steering anyone away from technical training.
True, there is a difference. I said "pushing college" because the education industry is pushing college, not merely "promoting education." If they were not steering kids away from technical training, they would not make technical high schools the punishment for failure in regular high schools, as is so often the case.

If they had not been pushing college, there would never have been a "No Child Left Behind" program that actually penalized schools for having tech-prep classes and programs.

In fact, given that only a minority of kids will ever get bachelor's degrees, if they were not pushing college, then tech-prep would be the predominant curriculum in most schools and college prep would be the specialty, rather than the opposite.

If the US had been conquered by another nation, the current US high school system is what they would force on us to keep us oppressed.
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