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Old 08-06-2021, 10:25 AM
 
19,776 posts, read 18,060,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Most people don't actually need or want a life of constant intellectual stimulation.

That might be hard for the minority who thrive on constant intellectual stimulation to understand, but most people aren't like them.

Again...only 70% of kids are ever going to get a bachelor's degree...because they simply don't want one. That's a fact that must be dealt with to have a well-functioning society.

I think that's generally correct. And goes a long way towards explaining financial stratification in The US.
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Old 08-06-2021, 10:34 AM
 
28,663 posts, read 18,768,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
I think another reason not addressed is that trade programs are expensive. Many schools really only have the space/money to have a couple of programs. My school had a “trade wing” that was built way after the original building, but programs had come and gone throughout the years. THey had one daycare center on campus that students and staff could use and students used to get training, but that had been closed by the time I arrived there. I think they still offered cosmetology and drafting. For stuff like mechanic work, electrician, culinary arts, plumbing- a lot of equipment is needed to help students train for the tasks.

There are other programs that are relatively inexpensive, but a lot of times they aren’t offered to many students. I know I worked as a sub in schools that had a medical program. The students would get training to work with the nurse, often getting their CNA or learning phlebotomy in the process.

In other countries, kids really only go through 9th grade before deciding what track to take in high school. At that point, they can pick schools that are focused on specific trades. We don’t really have that. That would allow for fewer schools offering each trade area instead of having the luck of the draw whether a student ended up in a school that offers the trade of interest.
Teaching a specific trade in high school would be a mistake. Rather, there should be a tech-prep track that educates kids for more advanced technical training.

I'm not talking about "vo-tech" where the high school trains kids for specific trades. I'm talking about spending two or three years giving kids a thorough foundation in basic applied science and mathematics that would prepare them for any kind of advanced technical training. Technical reading, technical writing, algebra and plane geometry every year, small business mathematics and administration, small business law and codes, electronic and electrical concepts and applications, building science, mechanical concepts and applications, hydraulic concepts and applications, more algebra and plane geometry, et cetera.
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Old 08-06-2021, 11:46 AM
 
19,776 posts, read 18,060,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo Gibby View Post
Isn't it amazing how many politicians and commentators who extol the merits of blue collar work and "trade schools" for other people's children send their own kids to the very institutions they claim aren't "worth the money"? Now, why would they do that???




This is simply untrue.

Not only do significantly more than 30% of Americans over 25 have at least a 4 year degree in 2021, but that percentage is even higher for the youngest group of over 25s. Between 2010 and 2019, the percentage of Americans who had at least a bachelor's degree rose from 29.9% to 36.0% (https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pres...ttainment.html). Among 25 to 29 year olds, 49% had at least an associate's degree in 2019 and 39% had a bachelor's degree or better. (https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_caa.pdf).

There's also a strong correlation between educational attainment and income. The median weekly wage of Americans with a HS diploma but no college was less than $781/week in 2021 or $40.6k annually. With a bachelor's degree, the median wage was $1305/week or $67.9k annually. With a master's degree it increased to $1,545 ($80.3k annually), and for a doctoral degree, $1885 ($98k annually). The mean wage for a person with a professional degree was $1893 ($98.4k annually).(https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-unempl...education.htm.)

The unemployment rates based on educational level fall as educational level increases. HS grads have an unemployment rate of 9% while 4 year college grads have an unemployment rate of 5.5% while doctoral degree holders have an unemployment rate of only 2.5%. (https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-unempl...education.htm.)

Facts are pesky little things.



I have no problem with students pursuing a trade or an occupation that maybe only requires a short course of training in welding or cosmetology. Not everybody is intellectually oriented. Not everybody has the temperament to sit at a desk all day. IMO, it's better to work at something you like than to work at something you dislike or hate just because of $$$.


I do object to the fallacy that some posters keep spreading that the trades are lucrative careers. That a few tradespeople are highly paid doesn't mean it's the common. Most tradespeople are going to start out working at close to today's minimum wage and probably top off at the equivalent of $50-60k range in today's dollars. They are good alternatives for people who aren't interested in pursuing a career that requires college but they aren't a realistic pathway to big bucks.


Bingo.
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Old 08-06-2021, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,065 posts, read 7,231,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Teaching a specific trade in high school would be a mistake. Rather, there should be a tech-prep track that educates kids for more advanced technical training.

I'm not talking about "vo-tech" where the high school trains kids for specific trades. I'm talking about spending two or three years giving kids a thorough foundation in basic applied science and mathematics that would prepare them for any kind of advanced technical training. Technical reading, technical writing, algebra and plane geometry every year, small business mathematics and administration, small business law and codes, electronic and electrical concepts and applications, building science, mechanical concepts and applications, hydraulic concepts and applications, more algebra and plane geometry, et cetera.
It's interesting that your solution to the problem is more difficult education. If they can't do regular 9th or 10th grade reading, writing, math, etc... what makes you think they're going to do well in technical reading, writing, math, etc..? If they're in 10th grade and they struggle to analyze "Lord of the Flies" in English class (a typical 10th grade reading assignment) they're not going to do much better reading technical manuals.
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Old 08-06-2021, 01:49 PM
 
28,663 posts, read 18,768,884 times
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Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Remember that 70% of young people never get a bachelor's degree even now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingo Gibby View Post
This is simply untrue.

Not only do significantly more than 30% of Americans over 25 have at least a 4 year degree in 2021, but that percentage is even higher for the youngest group of over 25s. Between 2010 and 2019, the percentage of Americans who had at least a bachelor's degree rose from 29.9% to 36.0%
I would not call 36% "significantly more" than 30%.

But okay, as of last census, 64% of young people never get a bachelor's degree.
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Old 08-06-2021, 01:54 PM
 
28,663 posts, read 18,768,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
It's interesting that your solution to the problem is more difficult education. If they can't do regular 9th or 10th grade reading, writing, math, etc... what makes you think they're going to do well in technical reading, writing, math, etc..? If they're in 10th grade and they struggle to analyze "Lord of the Flies" in English class (a typical 10th grade reading assignment) they're not going to do much better reading technical manuals.
I would ask: Why are they struggling in the 10th grade to read "Lord of the Flies." I read it in the sixth grade, and I was taught to read before starting school by a grandmother who had only an eighth grade education. It only takes a couple of months to learn to read, not 12 years, not even one year.

One of the problems is that they've been in a rigid track from grade school that has slipped them over their early sticking points rather than making sure they've gathered the basics.

Another problem is that by the 10th grade, a kid knows whether or not he cares to analyze "Lord of the Flies." What does it mean to him? OTOH, he might very much care to analyze a technical manual because he sees the direction application to his ability to earn a living. Motivation is the difference.
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Old 08-06-2021, 01:56 PM
 
14,299 posts, read 11,681,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
In other countries, kids really only go through 9th grade before deciding what track to take in high school. At that point, they can pick schools that are focused on specific trades. We don’t really have that. That would allow for fewer schools offering each trade area instead of having the luck of the draw whether a student ended up in a school that offers the trade of interest.
In Germany and elsewhere, it's 5th grade. Up through 5th grade is considered "elementary school" for everyone, and beyond that there are three separate types of schools which the students attend based on their test scores and eventual career goals.

Many people say 5th grade/11 years old is too early for this. Maybe 9th grade is too late. At any rate, trading comprehensive high schools for separate schools that sort students into university-bound or not would be a hard sell in the US, I think. I personally think it is a good idea, and Germany for one has had good success with this system.
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Old 08-06-2021, 01:58 PM
 
28,663 posts, read 18,768,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
In Germany and elsewhere, it's 5th grade. Up through 5th grade is considered "elementary school" for everyone, and beyond that there are three separate types of schools which the students attend based on their test scores and eventual career goals.

Many people say 5th grade/11 years old is too early for this. Maybe 9th grade is too late. At any rate, trading comprehensive high schools for separate schools that sort students into university-bound or not would be a hard sell in the US, I think. I personally think it is a good idea, and Germany for one has had good success with this system.
Moreover, that distinction plays very heavily in the role of government paying for that education.
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Old 08-06-2021, 03:10 PM
 
7,323 posts, read 4,118,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
Many people say 5th grade/11 years old is too early for this. Maybe 9th grade is too late. At any rate, trading comprehensive high schools for separate schools that sort students into university-bound or not would be a hard sell in the US, I think. I personally think it is a good idea, and Germany for one has had good success with this system.
I think it's a good idea too. However, I think Germany has kept more of its industrial base than the US. We shipped many good jobs overseas.

It's such a big world. There are all different types of people. Some people want to create something tangible. Some people don't want to sit all day at desk either.

I'm in Virginia, close to Colonial Williamsburg. There are tons of trades people here. There are art restorers, upholstery restorers, art framing stores, antique dealers and appraisers, florists, landscape designers, etc.

Colonial Williamsburg has apprenticeships for historical trades - wigmaker, public leather work, weaver, tailor, shoemaker, milliner, joinery, wheelwright, cooper, cabinet maker, woodworker. silversmith, printer.

There is tons of competition for these positions - especially fashion oriented trades have lots of applications from Japan (of all places). Most trades are learned in a couple of years before they work under an experienced tradesman. I think the whole process is about seven years. Tradesmen love their work.

I have a cousin whose husband loves being a car mechanic. I couldn't do it, but he loves it.

My appliance repair person owns his business and loves what he does. He's far clever and more mechanical than I am. He has a great personality so he does a great business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Another problem is that by the 10th grade, a kid knows whether or not he cares to analyze "Lord of the Flies." What does it mean to him? OTOH, he might very much care to analyze a technical manual because he sees the direction application to his ability to earn a living. Motivation is the difference.
This is so true. Another cousin wasn't into school until he began analyzing technical manuals in sixth grade. Today, he creates many of the neon light displays for Times Square businesses.

The idea that these people are stupid or can't read high school level books is really terrible. My local high school trade school offers culinary arts. It never crosses my mind that someone in that profession can't read. I'm pretty sure Julia Child and James Beard could read. Even Gordon Ramsey must be able to read.

As I said, it's a big world.
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Old 08-06-2021, 03:22 PM
 
7,323 posts, read 4,118,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Who are these people? Anti- higher ed folks on City Data? Republican politicians? Look at what THEY DO witj THEIR kids. See any of them going to trade school? Any Reagans? Bushs? Trumps? Cruz kids?

They want the best for their kids.
My daughter took a couple of years off of college to become a florist. She attended a trade school. She was successful and love it. In the end, she went back to college and she's in grad school now.

Her decision to become a florist was not anti-higher education. She was going forward to towards a visually creative field. She learned a lot and switched gears again. It doesn't have to be either/or situation.

What's best for their kids depends on the kid.

Edit - my mother was painter (as in fine art), my aunt was potter (as in pottery), my uncle was restaurateur, another aunt was a dress designer. They were all college educated, but it wasn't necessary for their careers. Technically they were all trades people.

Last edited by YorktownGal; 08-06-2021 at 03:31 PM..
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