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Old 06-24-2023, 11:03 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,656 posts, read 57,767,858 times
Reputation: 46116

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Nobody is talking about "keeping" kids at a lower level.
Lower level (for life) could also include those kids 'streamed' to college, who are not suited or not interested. College can delay the inevitable (un / under employment). Skilled trades weeds out the unsuited very quickly. Can't do the job... move on. Sometimes within the first day on the job, or in trade training. (trade schools will be a bit more forgiving, if still milking student for tuition).

Thus... get a j-o-b in your field before and during schooling.

Is this an appropriate career or edu path? Sort it out... first / and very early!
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Old 06-24-2023, 11:29 AM
 
28,622 posts, read 18,673,721 times
Reputation: 30899
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Lower level (for life) could also include those kids 'streamed' to college, who are not suited or not interested. College can delay the inevitable (un / under employment). Skilled trades weeds out the unsuited very quickly. Can't do the job... move on. Sometimes within the first day on the job, or in trade training. (trade schools will be a bit more forgiving, if still milking student for tuition).

Thus... get a j-o-b in your field before and during schooling.

Is this an appropriate career or edu path? Sort it out... first / and very early!
I have a niece who, after 10 years and many thousands of dollars, finally got a bachelors's degree in "General Studies."

Nobody can tell me that wasn't a cynical money grab on the part of the university.
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Old 06-24-2023, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,439 posts, read 24,032,774 times
Reputation: 32767
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I'd much rather you state explicitly what you mean rather than I assume from what you implied. Wouldn't want you to think I was putting words in your mouth.
My post 423 is very clear.
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Old 06-24-2023, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,439 posts, read 24,032,774 times
Reputation: 32767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Nobody is talking about "keeping" kids at a lower level.
Yes, indirectly they are. If you siphon off certain types of students into a non-college-bound track, those students will find it very difficult (especially in the field of mathematics) to later "catch up" with those student in a college-path track. I have personally witnessed that more than once.

On the other hand, no student who is in a college-path track has to go to college. They could choose trade school or no school.

Easy to move down. Challenging to move up.

I'll tell you where I saw something very similar to this -- my middle school's gifted programs. We had 2 -- one was called Gifted Center (higher level, gifted classes in all 4 core subjects); the other was called Gifted Base (lower level, still gifted, but in only 2 core subject areas -- either math/science OR English/history). When it was time for applications to the regional school for science and technology, almost none of the gifted base kids got into it.
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Old 06-24-2023, 12:45 PM
 
12,692 posts, read 8,924,720 times
Reputation: 34692
Your post 423 said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't really agree with you, from this standpoint:

I will presume that you agree that a full college degree (whether it be at the Bachelor's level, Master's level, or graduate level, is a higher level than a 1 or 2 year trade diploma.

So what should education aim for? I would say aim for the highest level of opportunity, while knowing that students may ultimately select a lower level (as many do). It's far more dangerous to aim for the bottom, thus restricting students from going higher.
I gave a pretty rational explanation why I disagreed in my post 427, to which you replied that I missed your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
My post 423 is very clear.
I asked you to be more explicit on your point but you've refused to do so. Therefore I can only reach a conclusion based on what you said that:

a. You believe the hierarchy of academic degrees equates to good someone is -- IE a higher level degree means they are a more elite person.
and
b. that you advocate for a one-size-fits-almost-none academic approach toward what you perceive as the "higher" education even if it doesn't fit 70% of your students rather than an approach to best fit everyone's individual talents.

I support a system that gives everyone their best opportunity as opposed to one based on academic elitism. 70% of your students spending 2-4 years of their lives on a path that doesn't fit them. Yet I'm the one who needs an open mind?
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Old 06-24-2023, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,439 posts, read 24,032,774 times
Reputation: 32767
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Your post 423 said:



I gave a pretty rational explanation why I disagreed in my post 427, to which you replied that I missed your point.



I asked you to be more explicit on your point but you've refused to do so. Therefore I can only reach a conclusion based on what you said that:

a. You believe the hierarchy of academic degrees equates to good someone is -- IE a higher level degree means they are a more elite person.
and
b. that you advocate for a one-size-fits-almost-none academic approach toward what you perceive as the "higher" education even if it doesn't fit 70% of your students rather than an approach to best fit everyone's individual talents.

I support a system that gives everyone their best opportunity as opposed to one based on academic elitism. 70% of your students spending 2-4 years of their lives on a path that doesn't fit them. Yet I'm the one who needs an open mind?
You have come to the correct conclusion.
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Old 06-24-2023, 01:52 PM
 
3,278 posts, read 2,332,863 times
Reputation: 6733
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Does he want to be a plumber? Or is that just what you want?
I just said that to him. I don’t care either way. I just think he should consider the trades because people will always need them and if you can work for yourself, you will do very well. Everyone I know that op does this stuff has made incredible money. No need to feel like you have to go through 4 years of college and waste $100,000 for a diploma that may have minimal value. The workforce is saturated with college graduates. And I work,with college graduates. Aside from their degree, they cannot diagnose a printer that doesn’t work because the usb cable is not plugged in. These people are completely helpless doing anything and are a slave to hire all of the plumbers and electricians out there because they cannot figure out the simplest problem.

I know a guy that dropped out of high school. Now has two laundromats. Owns both buildings. Owns 4 houses and rents three of them. Has millions of dollars in his house because he only declares a small portion of his income of his income and has to hide it in his house. So, no college was needed. The riches person I know. But he says it is hard work and has to fix everything himself. No college education would help him with this.
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Old 06-24-2023, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,439 posts, read 24,032,774 times
Reputation: 32767
Quote:
Originally Posted by trusso11783 View Post
I just said that to him. I don’t care either way. I just think he should consider the trades because people will always need them and if you can work for yourself, you will do very well. Everyone I know that op does this stuff has made incredible money. No need to feel like you have to go through 4 years of college and waste $100,000 for a diploma that may have minimal value. The workforce is saturated with college graduates. And I work,with college graduates. Aside from their degree, they cannot diagnose a printer that doesn’t work because the usb cable is not plugged in. These people are completely helpless doing anything and are a slave to hire all of the plumbers and electricians out there because they cannot figure out the simplest problem.

I know a guy that dropped out of high school. Now has two laundromats. Owns both buildings. Owns 4 houses and rents three of them. Has millions of dollars in his house because he only declares a small portion of his income of his income and has to hide it in his house. So, no college was needed. The riches person I know. But he says it is hard work and has to fix everything himself. No college education would help him with this.
Money is not the only reason that people choose certain career choices.
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Old 06-24-2023, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Rhode Island
9,254 posts, read 14,831,986 times
Reputation: 10284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I have a niece who, after 10 years and many thousands of dollars, finally got a bachelors's degree in "General Studies."

Nobody can tell me that wasn't a cynical money grab on the part of the university.
So they kidnapped her and forced her to enroll and stay enrolled for 10 years just to grab her money?
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Old 06-24-2023, 02:57 PM
 
28,622 posts, read 18,673,721 times
Reputation: 30899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
So they kidnapped her and forced her to enroll and stay enrolled for 10 years just to grab her money?
Nah, her mother did that.

But none of the so-called counselors at the university ever told her the truth, either. And it's a cynical money-grab for the university even to offer a degree in "General Studies."
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