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Old 06-24-2023, 03:08 PM
 
28,597 posts, read 18,629,703 times
Reputation: 30835

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Yes, indirectly they are. If you siphon off certain types of students into a non-college-bound track, those students will find it very difficult (especially in the field of mathematics) to later "catch up" with those student in a college-path track. I have personally witnessed that more than once.

On the other hand, no student who is in a college-path track has to go to college. They could choose trade school or no school.
The kids can and almost always do "siphon" themselves off. Most of them know by the time they've finished 9th grade whether they want an academic career, and most will not. We know that historically. Seventy percent of people will not get bachelor's degrees. Sixty percent will not even try. Those are the real market...but the education industry won't cater to the real market.

Moreover, the college curriculum is not an advantageous curriculum for someone who is not going to college. I know a young man whose father is a quite wealthy building contractor. The young man wanted an education that would best prepare him to take over his father's business. None of the high schools in the city offered him the education that would fit that intention. That was only possible for him to cobble together in the local community college after essentially wasting his time with a college-prep high school curriculum.

Quote:
I'll tell you where I saw something very similar to this -- my middle school's gifted programs. We had 2 -- one was called Gifted Center (higher level, gifted classes in all 4 core subjects); the other was called Gifted Base (lower level, still gifted, but in only 2 core subject areas -- either math/science OR English/history). When it was time for applications to the regional school for science and technology, almost none of the gifted base kids got into it.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that. First, we don't know what that "regional school of science and technology" is all about. Second, if the middle school were doing even its basic job, it should not have taken "higher level, gifted classes in all 4 core subjects" to be prepared for a "regional school for science and technology," whatever that actually means in that case.

I'm saying that a high school should have curriculums to prepare students to excel in either a vocational test like the military ASVAB or an academic test like the SAT. A single curriculum cannot meet both standards.
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Old 06-24-2023, 06:45 PM
509
 
6,323 posts, read 6,978,874 times
Reputation: 9441
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobaba View Post
Because it is for the most part difficult work.

I work with many of them in a construction related field. You can be constantly kneeling, stretching, crawling, or lifting heavy equipment and materials, and it could impact you when you get older.

You are also for the most part ... working all day, putting in 8 hours or 6 without travel.

Compare that to people who in an office, might work 4 real hours in a day (if that), joke around with co-workers for 2 hours, go to lunch for an hour, surf CD for an hour.

Not that MY job is like that by any stretch of the imagination, but it is for a lot of people.

I have considered looking at a trade, but I'm getting pretty old, so doubtful that someone would hire me.

Trades are probably one of the more 'thankful' positions out there. You hire someone to mow your lawn, either they do it, or they don't. 'Hey thanks for the job well done.'

Compare that to a business director whose job it is to 'optimize workflow' who makes 10x more than a lawn-mower.
Replied just so people could read your post, AGAIN.

My father was a carpenter and he INSISTED that I go to college. Physical work is tough, and he retired at 62. His body was worn out.

I graduated from college and got a job "walking" as forester through the woods. My mother was totally perplexed as I was making great money and sleeping on the ground at night!!

I retired at 56. Walking in the woods is tough work!!

BUT for those that think trades folks are dumb. I graduated from UC Berkeley. My father was totally illiterate in the four countries he lived.

He couldn't read or write in four languages. Never went to one day of school. But somehow he figured out math and basic physics. He was light on his biology, though.

UC Berkeley would have been a cake walk for him.
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Old 06-24-2023, 06:57 PM
 
8,857 posts, read 5,333,939 times
Reputation: 5659
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportslover View Post
People act like working in a trade is the greatest job in the world. Then why do so few people want to do it then? Why doesn’t society push going into trade school rather than going into college ?
It is not always getting into a trade as people think.

My son had to leave our home state to get an apprenticeship position. He will complete his 4 years in December.
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Old 06-24-2023, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,358 posts, read 23,944,182 times
Reputation: 32637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The kids can and almost always do "siphon" themselves off. Most of them know by the time they've finished 9th grade whether they want an academic career, and most will not. We know that historically. Seventy percent of people will not get bachelor's degrees. Sixty percent will not even try. Those are the real market...but the education industry won't cater to the real market.

Moreover, the college curriculum is not an advantageous curriculum for someone who is not going to college. I know a young man whose father is a quite wealthy building contractor. The young man wanted an education that would best prepare him to take over his father's business. None of the high schools in the city offered him the education that would fit that intention. That was only possible for him to cobble together in the local community college after essentially wasting his time with a college-prep high school curriculum.



I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that. First, we don't know what that "regional school of science and technology" is all about. Second, if the middle school were doing even its basic job, it should not have taken "higher level, gifted classes in all 4 core subjects" to be prepared for a "regional school for science and technology," whatever that actually means in that case.

I'm saying that a high school should have curriculums to prepare students to excel in either a vocational test like the military ASVAB or an academic test like the SAT. A single curriculum cannot meet both standards.
Since you don't know what either school was, you don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 06-24-2023, 08:06 PM
 
28,597 posts, read 18,629,703 times
Reputation: 30835
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'll tell you where I saw something very similar to this -- my middle school's gifted programs. We had 2 -- one was called Gifted Center (higher level, gifted classes in all 4 core subjects); the other was called Gifted Base (lower level, still gifted, but in only 2 core subject areas -- either math/science OR English/history). When it was time for applications to the regional school for science and technology, almost none of the gifted base kids got into it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that. First, we don't know what that "regional school of science and technology" is all about. Second, if the middle school were doing even its basic job, it should not have taken "higher level, gifted classes in all 4 core subjects" to be prepared for a "regional school for science and technology," whatever that actually means in that case.

I'm saying that a high school should have curriculums to prepare students to excel in either a vocational test like the military ASVAB or an academic test like the SAT. A single curriculum cannot meet both standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Since you don't know what either school was, you don't know what you're talking about.
You are the one who brought them up, and I clearly pointed out that you didn't provide enough information about them to know what point you were trying to make.

So now you think you've scored some kind of rhetorical victory

"I didn't define my terms, so you lose because you didn't know what my terms meant."

Phooey.
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Old 06-24-2023, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,358 posts, read 23,944,182 times
Reputation: 32637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
You are the one who brought them up, and I clearly pointed out that you didn't provide enough information about them to know what point you were trying to make.

So now you think you've scored some kind of rhetorical victory

"I didn't define my terms, so you lose because you didn't know what my terms meant."

Phooey.
You provide not one iota of information...just your opinion.
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Old 06-24-2023, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,551 posts, read 2,199,338 times
Reputation: 3893
Someone mentioned the military ASVAB test. My experience was over 45 years ago. All the male students in my senior class in high school were told to go to the cafeteria one day to take a test. To my knowledge, no one had ever heard of the ASVAB or really knew what it was for. Nowadays I would imagine that students are a little better prepared.
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Old 06-24-2023, 10:21 PM
 
12,663 posts, read 8,887,679 times
Reputation: 34632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
You are the one who brought them up, and I clearly pointed out that you didn't provide enough information about them to know what point you were trying to make.

So now you think you've scored some kind of rhetorical victory

"I didn't define my terms, so you lose because you didn't know what my terms meant."

Phooey.
Wish I could rep again.
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Old 06-24-2023, 10:28 PM
 
12,663 posts, read 8,887,679 times
Reputation: 34632
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Your post 423 said:
I gave a pretty rational explanation why I disagreed in my post 427, to which you replied that I missed your point.

I asked you to be more explicit on your point but you've refused to do so. Therefore I can only reach a conclusion based on what you said that:

a. You believe the hierarchy of academic degrees equates to good someone is -- IE a higher level degree means they are a more elite person.
and
b. that you advocate for a one-size-fits-almost-none academic approach toward what you perceive as the "higher" education even if it doesn't fit 70% of your students rather than an approach to best fit everyone's individual talents.

I support a system that gives everyone their best opportunity as opposed to one based on academic elitism. 70% of your students spending 2-4 years of their lives on a path that doesn't fit them. Yet I'm the one who needs an open mind?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You have come to the correct conclusion.
That was a good one. Almost as good as the second graders I've been working with this week can do.

Which still leaves unanswered why you would support a system that has 70% of your students spending that much time on a path that doesn't fit them? Why not support a system that has both college bound and trades bound paths?
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Old 06-24-2023, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,358 posts, read 23,944,182 times
Reputation: 32637
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
That was a good one. Almost as good as the second graders I've been working with this week can do.

Which still leaves unanswered why you would support a system that has 70% of your students spending that much time on a path that doesn't fit them? Why not support a system that has both college bound and trades bound paths?
Did I ever say that there shouldn't be "trades" education in public schools.

If I did, please show me.

Many public schools have 7 period days. Let's see -- math, science, social studies, English, and, presumably PE. That leaves 2 periods a day for electives, which could include trades-related courses, while still encouraging students to take higher level mathematcis. 7th grade through 12 grade -- that would be a dozen full-year trades-related courses they could take, or as many as 24 semester trades-related courses they could take. They don't have to choose electives like band, art, orchestra, chorus, drama, and so forth. More than a quarter of their time in middle and high schools could focus on trades-related courses.
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