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Old 06-26-2023, 12:57 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,178 posts, read 23,817,504 times
Reputation: 32571

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
The point re: personal choice flew right over your head. If you’re content with trade school, relative to the thread, who is telling you to do otherwise? That said, why must it be promoted (or college discouraged) to fit your personal preference?



...
That's one of several problems with many posts in this thread. Some of our posters have their own personal view of how schools should be run. Fine. Many of us do. I presume they believe in local control of education -- and it mostly still is -- until local elected school boards don't agree with them. Then they go on a rant...with nothing but personal opinion.
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Old 06-26-2023, 09:14 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,448 posts, read 3,709,924 times
Reputation: 5685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I have a niece who, after 10 years and many thousands of dollars, finally got a bachelors's degree in "General Studies."

Nobody can tell me that wasn't a cynical money grab on the part of the university.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportslover View Post
Why doesn’t society push going into trade school rather than going into college ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
That's one of several problems with many posts in this thread. Some of our posters have their own personal view of how schools should be run.
I think the problem is the perception society ‘pushes’ anyone to do either; or worse, this notion one’s choice to pursue college is a ‘money grab’ by the university. It’s bizarre. Bottom line, trade schools cost (and vary considerably) as well. In other words, at the end of the day, it’s clearly a bias against higher education, as a whole - and not much more than that.

That said, obviously, a trade school is a viable option for many; in fact, it appears a technical or vocational college would have been the better choice for Ralph’s niece.
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Old 06-26-2023, 09:39 AM
 
12,597 posts, read 8,824,665 times
Reputation: 34435
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Our school system was quite responsive to parent desires in terms of courses offered. Part of that was due to being a county that had a rather wide variance between blue collar and white collar, rich and poor, diversity in many aspects (inlcuding, but not limited to race). 66% of our school systems students did pursue 4 year degrees, but, of course, that meant that 34% did not.
I am also in a county that is essentially bi modal in the population. A very large percentage of scientists and engineers, as well as highly skilled craft workers alongside a very large percentage of low income who also, unfortunately, have no interest in education for themselves or their children. Percentage wise, the school had a roughly 50/50 spread between those who attended college and those who didn't, but over the past 10-15 years that has been slipping more toward 30/70 which is the opposite mix of what you mention.

When you look across large swaths of the country, the general mix of high education is much closer to the 30/70 we're seeing than it is toward the 66/34, almost opposite, values you have.

That's why this issue is important to me. That is a significant percentage of the population that is not being served by the school system focus on college bound education. You mentioned that providing other than a college focused program might leave out the late bloomers and other onesey-twosey numbers of students. But that comes at a cost of turning off the vast majority of that student population. Those kids who are turned off; where will they go? Gain a couple for college at the cost of how many who get left out?

Corporate Cowboy asked "why promote the trades?" Because right now the education system promotes college to the exclusion of all else. We are promoting something that fits 30% of the population while leaving the rest to flounder and figure it out on their own. Then we drag that 70% along in the same college prep classes they don't want to be in and have to water down the college prep classes to match. In the end, no one is served.
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Old 06-26-2023, 09:47 AM
 
28,564 posts, read 18,573,551 times
Reputation: 30812
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
I think the problem is the perception society ‘pushes’ anyone to do either; or worse, this notion one’s choice to pursue college is a ‘money grab’ by the university. It’s bizarre. Bottom line, trade schools cost (and vary considerably) as well. In other words, at the end of the day, it’s clearly a bias against higher education, as a whole - and not much more than that.

That said, obviously, a trade school is a viable option for many; in fact, it appears a technical or vocational college would have been the better choice for Ralph’s niece.
I think it's a money grab for a university to offer a bachelor's degree in "General Studies."

If she'd spent 10 years getting a degree in Computer Science (lots of people spend ten years getting Computer Science degrees), I'd have no ire about it. But General Studies? Not even a particular major? They were just taking her money.
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Old 06-26-2023, 09:49 AM
 
28,564 posts, read 18,573,551 times
Reputation: 30812
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I am also in a county that is essentially bi modal in the population. A very large percentage of scientists and engineers, as well as highly skilled craft workers alongside a very large percentage of low income who also, unfortunately, have no interest in education for themselves or their children. Percentage wise, the school had a roughly 50/50 spread between those who attended college and those who didn't, but over the past 10-15 years that has been slipping more toward 30/70 which is the opposite mix of what you mention.

When you look across large swaths of the country, the general mix of high education is much closer to the 30/70 we're seeing than it is toward the 66/34, almost opposite, values you have.

That's why this issue is important to me. That is a significant percentage of the population that is not being served by the school system focus on college bound education. You mentioned that providing other than a college focused program might leave out the late bloomers and other onesey-twosey numbers of students. But that comes at a cost of turning off the vast majority of that student population. Those kids who are turned off; where will they go? Gain a couple for college at the cost of how many who get left out?

Corporate Cowboy asked "why promote the trades?" Because right now the education system promotes college to the exclusion of all else. We are promoting something that fits 30% of the population while leaving the rest to flounder and figure it out on their own. Then we drag that 70% along in the same college prep classes they don't want to be in and have to water down the college prep classes to match. In the end, no one is served.
All of this, exactly. And the bolded in particular.

I can't rep you again.
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Old 06-26-2023, 10:46 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,448 posts, read 3,709,924 times
Reputation: 5685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I think it's a money grab for a university to offer a bachelor's degree in "General Studies."

If she'd spent 10 years getting a degree in Computer Science (lots of people spend ten years getting Computer Science degrees), I'd have no ire about it. But General Studies? Not even a particular major?

They were just taking her money.
It certainly wouldn’t be my recommendation, but it allows some folks to explore multiple areas of interest and/or can allow for a smooth transition into a variety of fields. That said, most are able to complete such in far less time than your niece i.e. it’s about her ridiculous waste of time (ten years) more than anything, here. I find it odd you (continue to) blame the college for her choice and (lack of) aptitude.
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Old 06-26-2023, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,178 posts, read 23,817,504 times
Reputation: 32571
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
I think the problem is the perception society ‘pushes’ anyone to do either; or worse, this notion one’s choice to pursue college is a ‘money grab’ by the university. It’s bizarre. Bottom line, trade schools cost (and vary considerably) as well. In other words, at the end of the day, it’s clearly a bias against higher education, as a whole - and not much more than that.

That said, obviously, a trade school is a viable option for many; in fact, it appears a technical or vocational college would have been the better choice for Ralph’s niece.
I would state it more bluntly -- it's a bias against a well-educated soceity. There is value to having a well-educated society.

Are there nations that have more options to young people?:
1. They can quit high school.
2. They can graduate from high school.
3. They can change their mind if they drop out and get a GED.
4. They can go to a community college.
5. They can go to a "trade school".
6. They can go to a public college/university.
7. They can go to a private college/university.
8. They can attend schools abroad.

The choices are unlimited.
More than 9 million American students attend community college, and most community colleges have trade-related options.
Trade-school enrollment has risen, from 9.6 million students in 1999 to 16 million in 2014. (couldn't find more recent data in my quick search).
14 million students attend a 4 year college.

Most of the people moaning and groaning in this thread are complaining from a political perspective, and nothing more.
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Old 06-26-2023, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,178 posts, read 23,817,504 times
Reputation: 32571
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I am also in a county that is essentially bi modal in the population. A very large percentage of scientists and engineers, as well as highly skilled craft workers alongside a very large percentage of low income who also, unfortunately, have no interest in education for themselves or their children. Percentage wise, the school had a roughly 50/50 spread between those who attended college and those who didn't, but over the past 10-15 years that has been slipping more toward 30/70 which is the opposite mix of what you mention.

When you look across large swaths of the country, the general mix of high education is much closer to the 30/70 we're seeing than it is toward the 66/34, almost opposite, values you have.

That's why this issue is important to me. That is a significant percentage of the population that is not being served by the school system focus on college bound education. You mentioned that providing other than a college focused program might leave out the late bloomers and other onesey-twosey numbers of students. But that comes at a cost of turning off the vast majority of that student population. Those kids who are turned off; where will they go? Gain a couple for college at the cost of how many who get left out?

Corporate Cowboy asked "why promote the trades?" Because right now the education system promotes college to the exclusion of all else. We are promoting something that fits 30% of the population while leaving the rest to flounder and figure it out on their own. Then we drag that 70% along in the same college prep classes they don't want to be in and have to water down the college prep classes to match. In the end, no one is served.
I can't imagine a country where students have more varied choices than they have here.
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Old 06-26-2023, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,178 posts, read 23,817,504 times
Reputation: 32571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I think it's a money grab for a university to offer a bachelor's degree in "General Studies."

If she'd spent 10 years getting a degree in Computer Science (lots of people spend ten years getting Computer Science degrees), I'd have no ire about it. But General Studies? Not even a particular major? They were just taking her money.
If it's taking her 10 years to get a BA or BS degree...don't blame the college.
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Old 06-26-2023, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,178 posts, read 23,817,504 times
Reputation: 32571
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
It certainly wouldn’t be my recommendation, but it allows some folks to explore multiple areas of interest and/or can allow for a smooth transition into a variety of fields. That said, most are able to complete such in far less time than your niece i.e. it’s about her ridiculous waste of time (ten years) more than anything, here. I find it odd you (continue to) blame the college for her choice and (lack of) aptitude.
You're right. General studies at the Bachelor's level allows students all sorts of options at the graduate level. But let's face it, a number of our posters don't want student choice; they want their vision of higher education.
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