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Old 06-27-2023, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,119 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32519

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
That’s what I was referring to as well; hence, my point ‘scheduling’/availability. The career assessment tests, however, are typically distributed/taken in-class. Either way, ‘intensive counseling’ isn’t likely needed relative to requirements; there are limited tracks in high-school anyway. That said, of course the focus is on college prep, because it requires a more strict and demanding curriculum (from the start) i.e. (advanced levels of) foreign language, math, science and so on which are not required relative to trade or vocational schools.

Hence, what’s there to promote (or counsel) re: trade schools?
I was sort of agreeing with you. LOL
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Old 06-30-2023, 07:35 PM
 
28,559 posts, read 18,560,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
This simply isn’t true when speaking to those who enroll in any sort of college i.e. it’s around 60%; however, only about a quarter of students enroll in a four-year college from the get-go. Hence my previous point, the majority of students fall in the middle somewhere; they seek college/some sort of higher education and/or career training.
I will correct myself on a point I usually make explicit: Most students are not getting bachelor's degrees...ever, not even in later years.

However, "some college" generally amounts to practical vocational or technical training, and I've already said that should be the direction for most students...except, as I've said before, vocational and technical training is not promoted as the alternative that it should be.
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Old 06-30-2023, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,119 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32519
https://www2.ed.gov/datastory/cte/index.html

What more do you folks want?
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Old 06-30-2023, 08:41 PM
 
11,409 posts, read 7,719,851 times
Reputation: 21906
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Seems pretty clear to me:


Your enthusiasm for vo-tech shines through.



So you schools could offer vo-tech, but how many do? Most people understand there is a difference between "offering" and promoting. "Offer" some vo-tech electives but "encourage" college prep track. Even offering random courses is still not having a career track in vo-tech.

And as for "electives" like band, art, chorus ..., all have some level of requirement before they become electives. Why not some level of basic shop? Shop provided some of the most important education I've used throughout my life, in college, in career, and in life. Much more so than most of the so called college prep courses I had. Just one very silly, simply little example -- shop taught me how to take measurements with tools such as calipers, micrometers, multimeters, as well as properly measure out materials and liquids. Those skills were all required in college science classes but were NOT taught in high school other than shop. My kids, years later, did not know how to use those instruments in college because they weren't taught in high school.

I consider skills like basic shop, basic home ec, so important to life, I'd be more than willing to drop a year of lit or art or music from high school to have a year of shop and home ec.
As electives sure, as requirements no. No one should have to take shop or home ec unless they want to.
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Old 06-30-2023, 08:52 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,548 posts, read 57,460,499 times
Reputation: 45903
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNC4Me View Post
As electives sure, as requirements no. No one should have to take shop or home ec unless they want to.
maybe we should offer a 'practical skills test', just like kindergarten (can you tie your shoes?, if not... repeat)
  • Can you count?
  • Read?
  • Write?
  • Speak in a complete sentence?
  • ...
  • Shop for nutritional value
  • Prepare your own food (no packaged food allowed)
  • Change a tire (if you plan to get a driver's license)

Then we could have upgrades from there...
  • understand Fractions and ratios.
  • Compose and audit a monthly budget.
  • Read a tape measure
  • Determine how to vote (with your brain / studying the candidates. not swayed by media).
Then for the real winners (and minimal expectation)
  • Read and understand a company balance sheet (since most USA workers are managing their retirement funds).
  • Know how to understand contracts (rents and buying homes)


way up the list... Actually know how to do something productive.
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Old 07-01-2023, 01:14 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,433 posts, read 3,695,406 times
Reputation: 5663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
However, "some college" generally amounts to practical vocational or technical training, and I've already said that should be the direction for most students ...except, as I've said before, vocational and technical training is not promoted as the alternative that it should be.
Point being, it’s an individual’s choice; it isn’t a matter of what most students should (or shouldn’t) do, according to you. What is (ideally) promoted is some-sort of educational/career plan, whatever it may look like, for the individual student; and, naturally, it’s going to require effort/input from the student (which you continually overlook). At the end of the day, one can’t ‘promote’ (or force-feed) anything.

To that end, it is misguided (and potentially harmful) when parents encourage their kids in a certain direction (or promote a career/specific school), yet alone a high-school counselor who would ‘promote’ such (particularly as a whole).
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Old 07-01-2023, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Sunny So. Cal.
4,212 posts, read 1,578,821 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm not talking about in-class counseling. I'm talking about the idea of a counselor meeting with a student (and perhaps the kid's parents) one on one.
At my school, they meet every year to create and update their four-year plan.
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Old 07-01-2023, 01:47 PM
 
28,559 posts, read 18,560,412 times
Reputation: 30797
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
Point being, it’s an individual’s choice; it isn’t a matter of what most students should (or shouldn’t) do, according to you. What is (ideally) promoted is some-sort of educational/career plan, whatever it may look like, for the individual student; and, naturally, it’s going to require effort/input from the student (which you continually overlook). At the end of the day, one can’t ‘promote’ (or force-feed) anything.

To that end, it is misguided (and potentially harmful) when parents encourage their kids in a certain direction (or promote a career/specific school), yet alone a high-school counselor who would ‘promote’ such (particularly as a whole).

Parents and especially counselors are most certainly doing exactly that right now, promoting the "certain direction" of a bachelor's degree, and have for over 50 years.
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Old 07-01-2023, 01:48 PM
 
28,559 posts, read 18,560,412 times
Reputation: 30797
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
maybe we should offer a 'practical skills test', just like kindergarten (can you tie your shoes?, if not... repeat)
  • Can you count?
  • Read?
  • Write?
  • Speak in a complete sentence?
  • ...
  • Shop for nutritional value
  • Prepare your own food (no packaged food allowed)
  • Change a tire (if you plan to get a driver's license)

Then we could have upgrades from there...
  • understand Fractions and ratios.
  • Compose and audit a monthly budget.
  • Read a tape measure
  • Determine how to vote (with your brain / studying the candidates. not swayed by media).
Then for the real winners (and minimal expectation)
  • Read and understand a company balance sheet (since most USA workers are managing their retirement funds).
  • Know how to understand contracts (rents and buying homes)


way up the list... Actually know how to do something productive.
The military ASVAB is a "practical skills" test.
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Old 07-01-2023, 01:51 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,548 posts, read 57,460,499 times
Reputation: 45903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The military ASVAB is a "practical skills" test.
That's great... administer it univerally, so USA EDU doesn't need to create yet another test to teach to so they can artificially increase their performance.
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