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Old 07-01-2023, 01:57 PM
Status: "Mistress of finance and foods." (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal Georgia
49,990 posts, read 63,313,910 times
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I figured out somewhere along the way that there are different kinds of “smart”.

Someone might be really great at cutting hair, but dumb as a post. Still they make enough money to live on just cutting hair. Someone else also might be great at cutting hair, and smart enough to build a successful chain of hair salons.

Some dumb person might be the very best cook at Waffle House, but a really good cook with a brain for business could do more. I admire the perfect fried egg, as much as the Michelin star chef.

I used to think a very smart person should only be a doctor, lawyer, engineer or professor, but now I admire the guy who turns a fleet of garbage trucks into a million dollar business just as much….and that guy might be happier.
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Old 07-01-2023, 02:32 PM
 
12,596 posts, read 8,820,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNC4Me View Post
As electives sure, as requirements no. No one should have to take shop or home ec unless they want to.
By that same logic no one should have to take English or Lit or math or science or history. We take those because as a society there is a certain base set of knowledge and skills needed to be a functioning member of society. Why do we not consider life skills like cooking or sewing on a button or basic repairs just as important?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
Point being, it’s an individual’s choice; it isn’t a matter of what most students should (or shouldn’t) do, according to you. What is (ideally) promoted is some-sort of educational/career plan, whatever it may look like, for the individual student; and, naturally, it’s going to require effort/input from the student (which you continually overlook). At the end of the day, one can’t ‘promote’ (or force-feed) anything.

To that end, it is misguided (and potentially harmful) when parents encourage their kids in a certain direction (or promote a career/specific school), yet alone a high-school counselor who would ‘promote’ such (particularly as a whole).
That's really the point of this discussion -- the education system has been promoting college to the exclusion of all else for the past few decades. No one is saying to promote trade skills to the exclusion of college but to promote them sufficiently such that kids and their parents can make an informed choice rather than just follow the path that's been promoted to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Parents and especially counselors are most certainly doing exactly that right now, promoting the "certain direction" of a bachelor's degree, and have for over 50 years.
Exactly.
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Old 07-01-2023, 02:52 PM
 
28,564 posts, read 18,573,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
That's great... administer it univerally, so USA EDU doesn't need to create yet another test to teach to so they can artificially increase their performance.
I've said since I took the doggoned thing nearly 50 years ago (and after having taken the SAT and ACT as well) that high school kids should have two specific curriculums available to them: One pointing to something like the ASVAB and one pointing to the SAT/ACT.

The military contains virtually every occupation the civilian world can offer. The ASVAB is expressly designed to determine what kinds of advanced technical training a person is prepared to complete successfully. It's been honed for decades to that purpose.

A kid should be graduated from high school being able to do well in the ASVAB or the SAT/ACT, or maybe both. We have too many kids being graduated who can't do well in either.
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Old 07-01-2023, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,169 posts, read 23,817,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
By that same logic no one should have to take English or Lit or math or science or history. We take those because as a society there is a certain base set of knowledge and skills needed to be a functioning member of society. Why do we not consider life skills like cooking or sewing on a button or basic repairs just as important?




That's really the point of this discussion -- the education system has been promoting college to the exclusion of all else for the past few decades. No one is saying to promote trade skills to the exclusion of college but to promote them sufficiently such that kids and their parents can make an informed choice rather than just follow the path that's been promoted to them.



Exactly.
No, English is important because all people need to learn to communicate effectively.
I can't sew a button, but I can easily hire it done or have a friend do it.
I can learn basic repairs for most things just by watching YouTube.

No student has been required by any school system to attend college. None. Not one. As is totally obvious by the numbers (a majority of students do not plan on attending college, according to one recent study).
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Old 07-01-2023, 04:12 PM
 
28,564 posts, read 18,573,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Parents and especially counselors are most certainly doing exactly that right now, promoting the "certain direction" of a bachelor's degree, and have for over 50 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
That's really the point of this discussion -- the education system has been promoting college to the exclusion of all else for the past few decades. No one is saying to promote trade skills to the exclusion of college but to promote them sufficiently such that kids and their parents can make an informed choice rather than just follow the path that's been promoted to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
No student has been required by any school system to attend college. None. Not one.
Nobody said that, and you know it. You just set up a strawman argument.
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Old 07-01-2023, 04:17 PM
 
28,564 posts, read 18,573,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
No, English is important because all people need to learn to communicate effectively.
I can't sew a button, but I can easily hire it done or have a friend do it.
I can learn basic repairs for most things just by watching YouTube.
Basic English grammar is finished by the 9th grade. Everyone would get that much.

What most schools don't have beyond that for people not going to college are practical reading and writing courses for the world of work.

When I taught intelligence analysts in the Air Force, it was a whole sea change to teach college graduates how to write for executives. They knew how to write for professors but not for executives. I was fortunate in my own college education to have taken journalism courses...learning to write for printed copy (which is different yet from writing for the Internet) was similar to writing for executives.
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Old 07-01-2023, 04:36 PM
 
28,564 posts, read 18,573,551 times
Reputation: 30812
Talking about what gets "promoted" to an 18-year-old high school student from a different angle.

As a 70-year-old black man today, I have for a long time been somewhat regretful that I did not attend an HBCU. Years ago, I thought about that: Why didn't I attend an HBCU?

I didn't reject the idea at the time...I simply didn't have the idea at the time.

This was the early 70s when PWI (predominantly white institutions) were pressing hard to increase their minority admissions. I had done well in high school, finishing at the top of the class (they still have my picture on the wall of #1 students), finaling in the National Merit Scholarships and the National Negro Achievement Awards. My ACT/SAT scores were high.

I was getting letters and scholarship offers from PWI across the nation. There were white people promoting their own alma maters all around me: High school counselors, people I didn't even know, like the owner of one local clothing store I shopped at. The guy recognized me and said, "Hey, have you thought about my college?"

The odd thing was this (and it didn't strike me at the time): I didn't get a single letter from a single HBCU. Surely they were tracking the National Merit finalists. Surely, they were tracking the National Negro Achievement winners. If the PWI were doing that much...surely the HBCUs were as well. Right? Apparently, not right.

My church was filled with HBCU alumni...but none ever said a word to me. Nobody pulled me aside after service and said, "I went to Morehouse...you ever thought about Morehouse?"

So, my mailbox was full of offers to PWI. I had people buttonholing me in person about going to a PWI. Going to an HBCU was never mentioned...and never considered.

This is what I mean about promoting college or vocational training to an 18-year-old. What doesn't get promoted probably won't even be considered.
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Old 07-01-2023, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,169 posts, read 23,817,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Talking about what gets "promoted" to an 18-year-old high school student from a different angle.

As a 70-year-old black man today, I have for a long time been somewhat regretful that I did not attend an HBCU. Years ago, I thought about that: Why didn't I attend an HBCU?

I didn't reject the idea at the time...I simply didn't have the idea at the time.

This was the early 70s when PWI (predominantly white institutions) were pressing hard to increase their minority admissions. I had done well in high school, finishing at the top of the class (they still have my picture on the wall of #1 students), finaling in the National Merit Scholarships and the National Negro Achievement Awards. My ACT/SAT scores were high.

I was getting letters and scholarship offers from PWI across the nation. There were white people promoting their own alma maters all around me: High school counselors, people I didn't even know, like the owner of one local clothing store I shopped at. The guy recognized me and said, "Hey, have you thought about my college?"

The odd thing was this (and it didn't strike me at the time): I didn't get a single letter from a single HBCU. Surely they were tracking the National Merit finalists. Surely, they were tracking the National Negro Achievement winners. If the PWI were doing that much...surely the HBCUs were as well. Right? Apparently, not right.

My church was filled with HBCU alumni...but none ever said a word to me. Nobody pulled me aside after service and said, "I went to Morehouse...you ever thought about Morehouse?"

So, my mailbox was full of offers to PWI. I had people buttonholing me in person about going to a PWI. Going to an HBCU was never mentioned...and never considered.

This is what I mean about promoting college or vocational training to an 18-year-old. What doesn't get promoted probably won't even be considered.
An 18 year old is an adult. If they take a few minutes away from playing video to thoroughly look into their feature...tough tubas.
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Old 07-01-2023, 07:59 PM
 
12,596 posts, read 8,820,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Nobody said that, and you know it. You just set up a strawman argument.
Again you are correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Basic English grammar is finished by the 9th grade. Everyone would get that much.

What most schools don't have beyond that for people not going to college are practical reading and writing courses for the world of work.

When I taught intelligence analysts in the Air Force, it was a whole sea change to teach college graduates how to write for executives. They knew how to write for professors but not for executives. I was fortunate in my own college education to have taken journalism courses...learning to write for printed copy (which is different yet from writing for the Internet) was similar to writing for executives.
They don't even teach practical reading and writing to college bound either. Early in my Air Force career, I had a week long course on how not to write because all I had been taught throughout my school years was how to write academically, not for the real world. Sounds like you had something similar. Funny thing is even today we still have to take the recent graduates and break them of the bad habits they learned in school and teach them how to write for the audience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Talking about what gets "promoted" to an 18-year-old high school student from a different angle.

As a 70-year-old black man today, I have for a long time been somewhat regretful that I did not attend an HBCU. Years ago, I thought about that: Why didn't I attend an HBCU?

I didn't reject the idea at the time...I simply didn't have the idea at the time.

This was the early 70s when PWI (predominantly white institutions) were pressing hard to increase their minority admissions. I had done well in high school, finishing at the top of the class (they still have my picture on the wall of #1 students), finaling in the National Merit Scholarships and the National Negro Achievement Awards. My ACT/SAT scores were high.

I was getting letters and scholarship offers from PWI across the nation. There were white people promoting their own alma maters all around me: High school counselors, people I didn't even know, like the owner of one local clothing store I shopped at. The guy recognized me and said, "Hey, have you thought about my college?"

The odd thing was this (and it didn't strike me at the time): I didn't get a single letter from a single HBCU. Surely they were tracking the National Merit finalists. Surely, they were tracking the National Negro Achievement winners. If the PWI were doing that much...surely the HBCUs were as well. Right? Apparently, not right.

My church was filled with HBCU alumni...but none ever said a word to me. Nobody pulled me aside after service and said, "I went to Morehouse...you ever thought about Morehouse?"

So, my mailbox was full of offers to PWI. I had people buttonholing me in person about going to a PWI. Going to an HBCU was never mentioned...and never considered.

This is what I mean about promoting college or vocational training to an 18-year-old. What doesn't get promoted probably won't even be considered.
Excellent example.
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Old 07-02-2023, 05:59 AM
 
31,615 posts, read 26,458,929 times
Reputation: 24433
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportslover View Post
People act like working in a trade is the greatest job in the world. Then why do so few people want to do it then? Why doesn’t society push going into trade school rather than going into college ?
First and foremost by 1980's if not bit before liberal progressive democrats began demeaning trade school and vocational training. This was part of their "everyone should go to college" mantra. What they meant by that of course was largely minorities in particular brown/black African American youth but others as well.

Anyone who went to high school or even junior high say before or during 1970's and some cases through 1980's knew deal; there were often two tracks, college prep and vocational.

Nearly all public school systems had at least one "tech" or "vocational" high school that covered all sorts of trades and working careers. Other high schools at least had typing, stenography and other secretarial courses along with various shop classes and other things such as practical nursing.

Idea was when students graduated from such course work they could enter work force and many did.

Will give you that by 1970's or 1980's manufacturing and other employment sectors began to die off in areas of USA leaving less employment for certain stills or trades.

What has happened recently however is thanks to large inflows of illegal aliens into nearly all construction trades wages have gone down. Lots of guys won't get out of bed to take a pi$$ for sort of money being offered. Only real money in trades/construction nowadays is with union and federal or state funding jobs that mandate prevailing wage. You'd be surprised at how much a traffic flag waver makes on such projects.

Other factors? Over course of several economic recessions and other downturns that slowed construction and other work many guys simply left the trades and never returned. Some aged out, others found better work.

Trades for many has always been cyclical work; feast or famine so to speak. When a project is done you move onto next if there is one, if not hunker down until hiring picks up.

In past guys could pick up side work during down times, things like doing plumbing and other jobs for home owners or similar small projects. But now they're competing with some eejit contractor and his merry band of illegal day laborers fresh from local Home Depot or Lowes parking lot.

You can't bid against a guy who isn't paying anything close to prevailing wage but often isn't even paying minimum and his so called "crew" are all off the books. Add to this he will use the cheapest stuff can lay hands upon and that's that. Well people could compete if they looked at more than just final number, but often they don't. They hire guy who brings in lowest bid and take their chances.
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