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Old 07-02-2023, 10:52 PM
 
12,578 posts, read 8,809,297 times
Reputation: 34390

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. Show me/us where the governement is saying that "a bachelor's degree...is necessary for survival". I wanna see where the government is saying that.

2. WHo are the posters -- be specific -- who deny that "anything less than college should be offered as an option".

SHOW US. Post numbers in this thread will be fine.
For some time our state has had it as a policy. Examples (note the dates are when the policies were written. It is now in redline for revision to the current policy):

The plan calls upon the department to support the work of Tennessee's districts in increasing the average ACT composite score to 21 by 2020 and in equipping the majority of high school graduates from the class of 2020 to earn a postsecondary certificate, diploma, or degree Drive to 55 Postsecondary Report pp1.

While the word certificate is included, most of the school systems, and indeed most of the language in the various reports focuses on postsecondary education = college education.

Yet, we are far from this goal. While almost 60 percent of high school graduates enroll in postsecondary, only 24 percent complete postsecondary. TNESSA State Plan Redline pp21

The majority of Tennessee’s college faculty and employers tell us that high school graduates are
not ready for the expectations they have in their classrooms and the work place.
Ibid pp22

The ACT serves as a gateway to college and career in Tennessee, determining students’ eligibility
for the HOPE scholarship, requirements for postsecondary remedial or developmental coursework, and sometimes entry-level salary. Between 2011 and 2015, we have seen the average composite Tennessee ACT score for public students increase from 19.0 to 19.4. By 2020, we will raise this number to 21, signaling that the average student in Tennessee is prepared for postsecondary coursework.
Ibid pp19

As a state, we have increased the college-going rate by 5 percent, which is a greater increase than the previous six years combined. In 2015, however, only 62 percent of spring graduates matriculated at postsecondary institution in the fall. In order to reach this goal, we need to prepare more students to persist in postsecondary education. Ibid pp20

Note the language used. The ACT's primary purpose is college admission. Thing is, I agree with the wording in principle; the issue I have has been the implementation. The implementation of these plans was focused on college with career training seen as a consolation prize by many educators. Now, this has changed under the current governor who is bringing back an emphasis on career and technical education, hence why the ESSA plan is under revision.

I give the plan credit for considering that earning a recognized industry certification or an appropriate ASVAB score provides evidence of education. Ready Graduate, Ibid pp80
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Old 07-02-2023, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,124 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32521
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
For some time our state has had it as a policy. Examples (note the dates are when the policies were written. It is now in redline for revision to the current policy):

The plan calls upon the department to support the work of Tennessee's districts in increasing the average ACT composite score to 21 by 2020 and in equipping the majority of high school graduates from the class of 2020 to earn a postsecondary certificate, diploma, or degree Drive to 55 Postsecondary Report pp1.

While the word certificate is included, most of the school systems, and indeed most of the language in the various reports focuses on postsecondary education = college education.

Yet, we are far from this goal. While almost 60 percent of high school graduates enroll in postsecondary, only 24 percent complete postsecondary. TNESSA State Plan Redline pp21

The majority of Tennessee’s college faculty and employers tell us that high school graduates are
not ready for the expectations they have in their classrooms and the work place.
Ibid pp22

The ACT serves as a gateway to college and career in Tennessee, determining students’ eligibility
for the HOPE scholarship, requirements for postsecondary remedial or developmental coursework, and sometimes entry-level salary. Between 2011 and 2015, we have seen the average composite Tennessee ACT score for public students increase from 19.0 to 19.4. By 2020, we will raise this number to 21, signaling that the average student in Tennessee is prepared for postsecondary coursework.
Ibid pp19

As a state, we have increased the college-going rate by 5 percent, which is a greater increase than the previous six years combined. In 2015, however, only 62 percent of spring graduates matriculated at postsecondary institution in the fall. In order to reach this goal, we need to prepare more students to persist in postsecondary education. Ibid pp20

Note the language used. The ACT's primary purpose is college admission. Thing is, I agree with the wording in principle; the issue I have has been the implementation. The implementation of these plans was focused on college with career training seen as a consolation prize by many educators. Now, this has changed under the current governor who is bringing back an emphasis on career and technical education, hence why the ESSA plan is under revision.

I give the plan credit for considering that earning a recognized industry certification or an appropriate ASVAB score provides evidence of education. Ready Graduate, Ibid pp80
What I asked for, what I asked about...you didn't present. Period.
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Old 07-02-2023, 11:16 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,433 posts, read 3,695,406 times
Reputation: 5668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Right now, few schools have tech-prep curriculums. Such a curriculum would have courses such as electronics, hydraulics, mechanical operations, process monitoring and measurement, building science, small business law, technical writing, technical reading, small business economics, and multiple courses of practical algebra and plane geometry.
Most trade schools (and community colleges, for that matter) accept GED certification. Again, what is there to promote relative to such?
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Old 07-02-2023, 11:35 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,550 posts, read 57,460,499 times
Reputation: 45903
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
The point of a high-school is education ...
one important point that is missing (pre college / job training), is career exposure.

As a society we've passed laws with the intent to protect children (a good thing), but, in fact those laws restrict employers from offering entry level positions to pre-age 18, and the threat of having a student employee that would exceed state mandated maximum work hours during School years. +/-

The LAST person to give employment / career guidance to students is somene buried within the protectionism of USA EDU employment (pig trough) (except in their field).

Really does no harm for 12+ YO to get their hands dirty and learn what it takes to earn a living. It might be incentive to stay in school Worked for the apprentices for hundreds of years. Many statesmen and leaders around the world served indentured servitude. Might reduce teen and domestic violence, crime, bullying, obesity to get them off the couch, away from the tube, and outta the house. 12+ yr olds have a lot of energy, talent, imagination, skills yet to perfect. Don't miss a teachable moment.

Probably one reasons there are no more Dairy Farm Boarding schools listed in the USA. Worked for me... 12 - 16 hrs work / day. Little time to get in trouble, but a lot of time to figure out what you DON'T want to be doing the rest of your life. Plenty of jobs can be very impressional. I thought I had 'retired' when at age 15 I escaped from the dairy farm and took a FT night shift job cleaning a pottery factory. (I had 2 other jobs on weekends + school). All of my school friends worked too. When I started at my Fortune 50 at age 17, I was cleaning 28 bathrooms (some were 8 holers). That job led me to pursue a higher calling (quickly). Directly from skilled toilet brush and waxing mops, to manufacturing, and within 6 months doing interface of NC machines to computers (in early 1970's), This was because I already knew how to do and invent stuff. That had started even before age 12. And my parents certainly had nothing to do with that!!! (except they wanted me gone, the sooner the better), I obliged.

Necessity can be the mother of inventing (yourself).

Last edited by StealthRabbit; 07-02-2023 at 11:46 PM..
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Old 07-03-2023, 12:10 AM
 
12,578 posts, read 8,809,297 times
Reputation: 34390
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
What I asked for, what I asked about...you didn't present. Period.
Are you seeking to understand or just to quibble over exact words? I really can't keep up with the strawmen and flying goalposts.
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Old 07-03-2023, 12:13 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,550 posts, read 57,460,499 times
Reputation: 45903
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Are you seeking to understand or just to quibble over exact words? I really can't keep up with the strawmen and flying goalposts.
(can't rep)

Common response, get used to it from our 'pros' (career educators who've done it so RIGHT)
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Old 07-03-2023, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,124 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32521
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Are you seeking to understand or just to quibble over exact words? I really can't keep up with the strawmen and flying goalposts.
I asked you to provide the evidence for what you posted. You didn't.
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Old 07-03-2023, 02:40 AM
 
1 posts, read 152 times
Reputation: 20
The perception of working in a trade as the "greatest job in the world" varies, but fewer people choose trade careers due to societal emphasis on college education, limited awareness of trade schools, and misconceptions about these professions. Efforts are needed to promote trade schools as viable alternatives, highlighting job security, competitive wages, and entrepreneurial opportunities to encourage more people to consider trade careers.
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Old 07-03-2023, 05:29 AM
 
2,947 posts, read 2,881,411 times
Reputation: 5028
Trade schools are either just a foot in the door or not needed at all.


In the world of trades, especially in fields paying stupid amounts of money, landing the apprenticeship is the key. Paid apprenticeship for 4-6 years, certification and/or nationally recognized union card.


Why isn't it heavily promoted? Hell, tradesmen don't even promote it. A shortage of workers keeps the pay scale up and workers in demand. Also trades tend to be tight-knit if not outright generational. Maybe roll the dice on Harvard rather than trying to break into some of them, or in some areas.


And two, the salaries stated on any google search for some trades are grossly underestimated, even lightyears wildly underestimated. I'm not even sure how they come up with them.
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Old 07-03-2023, 05:51 AM
 
28,562 posts, read 18,560,412 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
To me, most of those sound like community college level courses.
That's what AP courses are...just taught in high school.

But if the equivalent in vocational studies were offered in high school, there would be more kids interested in high school.
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