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And that's great. It also takes more school in the traditional trades. But at that point, a young person is at least earning a living, will have a better idea of which way they want to go, and will have more knowledge about what additional schooling is best...without being under a burden of debt for what might have been a bad decision.
Sure, and it's good in that sense.
But a young person also has to weigh the stats that show the longer one waits to enter a 4-year college program, the less likely they ever will. Waiting until 22-25 is one thing. Waiting until over 30 is quite another. Not to say impossible individually but less likely as a population.
But a young person also has to weigh the stats that show the longer one waits to enter a 4-year college program, the less likely they ever will. Waiting until 22-25 is one thing. Waiting until over 30 is quite another. Not to say impossible individually but less likely as a population.
Remember that 70% of young people never get a bachelor's degree even now.
But now they don't get prepared for anything else, either.
OK now, there is no, "deceit" in the the numbers just people who don't understand the numbers directly or maybe what the numbers means in larger context and alternatively some who desire to obfuscate for whatever reason(s).
anybody I ever hear using that statistic is using it to justify the expense and time they spend on going to college. If you're getting an education and something you can make a career out of then great. I don't think a lot of people go to college with that view in mind I certainly didn't.
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Median numbers, which of course squelch the impact of outliers such as billionaires tell the same story as average numbers. FE per young millennials those with degrees earn about half again as much income.
but again that's only if they get a degree in something that's applicable to career.
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The trades are critical for sure, our economy stops without truckers, electricians, HVAC, plumbers etc.
these people can make a lot of money some of them more than the vast majority of those that went to college
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Trade jobs are dominated by men. IMO this is factor towards why high schools don't offer more trade centered training.
That depends on the trade I went to trade school or really a community college that had multiple different trade schools in it. One of these trades that had a lot of students was cosmetology and that was 95% women.
On the education side of things, I do need to address this point.
At some point in time we need to come to some consensus of what K-12 education is all about and be able to modify that every so-often as technology and other trends that largely come from it seem fit.
Are schools about providing a general education?
Preparing and moving people towards college?
Making well-rounded citizens?
A job fair largely focused on building careers?
Building critical thinking skills?
All, or some, or none of the above.
We can't fix the issues in education or get it to where it needs to be if we don't even know where it needs to be to begin with. This includes training for trades as well.
In k12 has to do all those things it has to prepare students for college it has to prepare students for trades, it has to create well-rounded students.
I think the only real fix is parents getting involved. A lot of schools are busy naval gazing they're not focusing on any of this.
I don't think it has much to do with getting 'dirty' i.e. don't we all in one way or the other? Rather, from my perspective at least, it has to do with the lack of an intellectual challenge associated with trades and physical labor. Obviously, however, we need them; no reason for either to 'look down' on anyone.
That seems to be a common misnomer people have about trades. I've worked in a few and every one of them I've worked in required a lot of problem solving.
There isn't really a lack of an intellectual challenge. If there was people would fix their own cars or do their own plumbing. People that hire other people to do that can't do it themselves they don't have the skills.
"The trades" is a vague umbrella term. On city-data there is a romantic notion of a tradesperson - plumber or electrician, some kind of master technician making 6 figures a year.
C-D is a forum heavily focused on real estate and populated by retired white collar professionals. When they call tradespeople in, they indeed encounter those well compensated types.
But the "trades" also encompasses things like veterinary technician and medical assistant - the low wage workers of their industries. You don't make a "career" out of being a medical assistant or vet tech unless you are happy with 30-45k per year your whole career. They are worker bees and will always be worker bees. That is something you do to get into the industry with a certified job. If you want more, you'll need more school.
Trades are typically considered jobs that you don't need a bachelor's degree to do you may not need any college they're focus more on skills rather than education. That's not the same trades don't require education because most of them do.
anybody I ever hear using that statistic is using it to justify the expense and time they spend on going to college. If you're getting an education and something you can make a career out of then great. I don't think a lot of people go to college with that view in mind I certainly didn't.
but again that's only if they get a degree in something that's applicable to career.
these people can make a lot of money some of them more than the vast majority of those that went to college
That depends on the trade I went to trade school or really a community college that had multiple different trade schools in it. One of these trades that had a lot of students was cosmetology and that was 95% women.
No question some people rationalize the value of college/their degree path or simply don't reasonably consider costs vs. benefits. Some people do the same relative to the trades.
All sorts of people earn degrees in areas outside their working field. One of my son's medical school buddies had an art degree. A good friend of mine has made a great living selling natural gas pressure pumps - his degree is in management.
Some trades people making more than the majority of those who went to college is an outlier fallacy. You need to look at averages, medians or identical ranges between the groups.......also carrier earnings vs. yearly earnings are a factor. Lots of trade workers are forced out due to physical issues earlier than those who work in offices etc.
That seems to be a common misnomer people have about trades. I've worked in a few and every one of them I've worked in required a lot of problem solving.
There isn't really a lack of an intellectual challenge. If there was people would fix their own cars or do their own plumbing. People that hire other people to do that can't do it themselves they don't have the skills.
Listen no one is running you or trades people down. You seem to take all this personally - don't do that.
On the fly problem solving - how can I sweat these two wet pieces of copper pipe? How do I take the flat spot out of this locomotive wheel? How can I get this string/rope through this 90 foot run of PVC in order to pull the wire? Should I use WEGOs or wire nuts? How can I wire these 2 - 12volt deep cycle batteries to output 24VCD?
What does "line" vs. "load" mean on the back of my GFCI receptacle? Why is it not OK to tie off ground to neutral at a receptacle or secondary panel when ground is directly bonded to natural in the main panel? In hot and neutral only circuits (no ground) how/why do GFCIs test "OK" when there is no equipment ground? And quizzically enough why is this situation better/safer than not having GFCI protection? How can I transition from 1" PEX to 1.5" schedule 40 PVC or thin wall or galvanized? Will I really kill this Zoeller pump running 1" drain pipe instead of 1.25"?
I've worked dirty in both the oilfield and industrial electrical construction, not to mention growing up on a ranch, and I still do 80% of my own plumbing (I have no desire nor the equipment to pump out primary sewage tanks) and almost 100% of my own electrical. There's a difference between reading plans or even devising your own plans and putting that info action and long term intellectually stimulating work.
It's like my plumber friend once told my son after my plumber friend tried to teach my son to sweat pipe unsuccessfully.
Paraphrasing......
Plumber friend - "Yea, that's a little harder than it looks but once you get it you don't even have to think about it"
Brain surgeon son - "How long would it take you to teach me to be a plumber?"
Plumber - "6 weeks for you not to be completely dangerous, 6 months to be a decent helper, 1 year to be pretty good." "The difference is in a year or two I could teach you to be a good repair plumber.......you could never teach me how to be a brain surgeon."
Most people don't actually need or want a life of constant intellectual stimulation.
That might be hard for the minority who thrive on constant intellectual stimulation to understand, but most people aren't like them.
Again...only 70% of kids are ever going to get a bachelor's degree...because they simply don't want one. That's a fact that must be dealt with to have a well-functioning society.
anybody I ever hear using that statistic is using it to justify the expense and time they spend on going to college. If you're getting an education and something you can make a career out of then great. I don't think a lot of people go to college with that view in mind I certainly didn't.
but again that's only if they get a degree in something that's applicable to career.
these people can make a lot of money some of them more than the vast majority of those that went to college
That depends on the trade I went to trade school or really a community college that had multiple different trade schools in it. One of these trades that had a lot of students was cosmetology and that was 95% women.
I think another reason not addressed is that trade programs are expensive. Many schools really only have the space/money to have a couple of programs. My school had a “trade wing” that was built way after the original building, but programs had come and gone throughout the years. THey had one daycare center on campus that students and staff could use and students used to get training, but that had been closed by the time I arrived there. I think they still offered cosmetology and drafting. For stuff like mechanic work, electrician, culinary arts, plumbing- a lot of equipment is needed to help students train for the tasks.
There are other programs that are relatively inexpensive, but a lot of times they aren’t offered to many students. I know I worked as a sub in schools that had a medical program. The students would get training to work with the nurse, often getting their CNA or learning phlebotomy in the process.
In other countries, kids really only go through 9th grade before deciding what track to take in high school. At that point, they can pick schools that are focused on specific trades. We don’t really have that. That would allow for fewer schools offering each trade area instead of having the luck of the draw whether a student ended up in a school that offers the trade of interest.
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