Deaths of Despair as Related to the Value of a College Education (unemployment, fast food)

[Mike from back east]

Article in today's WaPo about how people with no college degree are being left behind as the nation starts to recover from the COVID-19 pandemic. These people are not members of a skilled trade like the construction trades, many of whom have stayed busy during the pandemic even without a college degree.

Some stats from the article.

"Nearly 4 million adult workers without college degrees have not found work again after losing their jobs in the pandemic. Only 199,000 adult workers with a bachelor’s degree or higher are in the same situation." (I'm sure a lot of these unemployed people are found in the homeless populations around the country.)

"In March ... the overall economy added back 916,000 jobs. Only 7,000 went to workers with high school diplomas but no college degree."

"Horrigan’s research has shown that both minority females without college degrees and white males without college degrees are having the hardest time finding work again."

"But there’s an eerie similarity to what’s happening at this point ... with high-school educated workers struggling and what happened in the years after the Great Recession when men without college degrees had some of the hardest time finding work again. Many men after the Great Recession ended up so discouraged that they turned to alcohol, drugs and suicide, what became known as “deaths of despair.”



There's a series of articles in the WaPo about how the rate of rural people "on disability" is double the rate for people in urban areas. Many of these are the no-college types with no skill sets usually found in urban employment centers. Here's a link to one of those article from which I pull this stat: "...disability recipients ... are disproportionately prevalent in rural America — where, on average, 9.1% of the working-age population receives disability, compared to the national average of 6.5% and an urban rate of 4.9" ... are even more overrepresented in the Southeast and central Appalachia. These are places economists have called “disability belts.” There are "families out there with multiple generations on disability.


All of the cited articles have much more info; my bottom line here is that not getting a college education creates major hazards for those with only high school or less.

Lastly, there's the issue of Deaths of Despair which are happening in the non-college population at six times the rates for those with a college degree. There's a "perfect storm" affecting the lesser educated people in our country . . . it's killing them, and I want to discuss it in the forums.

[Hemlock140]

Yes, even when a degree is not a formal requirement for a job, those with a degree are more likely to be hired. Even with a generic degree such as Liberal Arts, a degree demonstrates discipline, reliability, that the person can stick with challenging tasks and that they have some critical thinking skills. Those without the skills or degree are still out of work because they do not want to work in those jobs for which they are qualified, such as retail and fast food, especially if they can make more on unemployment . . .or disability.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

All of the cited articles have much more info; my bottom line here is that not getting a college education creates major hazards for those with only high school or less.

But what do you do with people who are really only suited to flipping burgers or working in a factory? What good would college, or should I say "an attempt at college", do them?

I shopped for sneakers this past weekend. I could have bought a pair at $55-$70 made in Indonesia or Vietnam but in the end I plunked down $170 for a pair made in U.S.A. That may be a quixotic waste of a hundred bucks but at least I'm trying to help.

I am acquainted with Appalachia and there are good paying jobs for HVAC repair & maintenance, auto mechanics, heavy equipment operators, and truck drivers. The days of large steel mills and coal mines are gone and they have not been replaced. "Learning to code" or going to college is not the answer for people who 100 years ago would have worked in a coal mine or a blouse factory. There were people who recently tried to promote the idea of bringing manufacturing jobs back from overseas, including pharmaceutical manufacturing jobs. Not sure what happened to them or why it's not being talked about much these days.

[2Navigate]

Originally Posted by jtab4994

But what do you do with people who are really only suited to flipping burgers or working in a factory? What good would college, or should I say "an attempt at college", do them?

I shopped for sneakers this past weekend. I could have bought a pair at $55-$70 made in Indonesia or Vietnam but in the end I plunked down $170 for a pair made in U.S.A. That may be a quixotic waste of a hundred bucks but at least I'm trying to help.

I am acquainted with Appalachia and there are good paying jobs for HVAC repair & maintenance, auto mechanics, heavy equipment operators, and truck drivers. The days of large steel mills and coal mines are gone and they have not been replaced. "Learning to code" or going to college is not the answer for people who 100 years ago would have worked in a coal mine or a blouse factory. There were people who recently tried to promote the idea of bringing manufacturing jobs back from overseas, including pharmaceutical manufacturing jobs. Not sure what happened to them or why it's not being talked about much these days.

It's not talked about because it wouldn't be multiple but rather a handful of jobs that would be brought back in your scenario, due to automation and increased efficiency. If any of those jobs come back, they will be highly technical too.

Keep in mind that the biggest job creator is inefficiency of any process, which is still present just about anywhere. Thus the nostalgia for 'good old times'.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by 2Navigate

It's not talked about because it wouldn't be multiple but rather a handful of jobs that would be brought back in your scenario, due to automation and increased efficiency. If any of those jobs come back, they will be highly technical too.

So who is working in all those factories in China and throughout the "developing world"? Why does Nike have factories in the third world that employ an average of 3,000 workers each but their 5 factories in the U.S. only employ 300 each? Nike donated $40 million to BLM but why couldn't they have taken that money and built a factory or a handful of factories in majority Black cities like Newark, Detroit, and Atlanta for a lasting contribution to society? I bet those factories would turn a profit, too.

Keep in mind that the biggest job creator is inefficiency of any process, which is still present just about anywhere. Thus the nostalgia for 'good old times'.

[cut] You're saying jobs are inefficient but the reason we are having this conversation is because so many people are on disability. How efficient are disability payments? By the way, we are importing millions of new people every year and many of them will be settled by the government in Appalachia. What jobs are they supposed to do? I'm sure many will find their way onto disability.

[Mike from back east]

In the comments section of the WaPo article are people saying that every service truck they see for plumbing, HVAC, electrical, etc, all have signage that they are hiring. Somewhere along the way we are not training people for these jobs, and I suspect it's also hard to find good training for carpentry, roofing, painting, masonry, landscaping, concrete work, heavy equipment operator and other building trades as well. IIRC in the old days the various unions had training and apprenticeship programs but since most unions are either gone or a mere shadow of their former selves where do the non-college types go for training, especially since some of the for-profit tech training "schools" are a ripoff that leave people deep in debt and with a useless 'credential.' It's a mess. We seem to lack investment in real blue collar training.

Some high school grads just don't know what they want to do and don't have much time or money to figure it out. Some have doofus parents who are little to them. Those who qualify for entry to a 2 or 4 year college can get their eyes opened to the larger world that's out there and along the way figure out what they want to do. Perhaps we taxpayers should cover the cost and be paid back by public service of some sort. The military has some training but you have to sign up X years before you get the good stuff.

I think the blue collar trades could benefit from 2-4 years of college, to learn their trade as well as how to run a business, hire people, invest in equipment, licensing, insurances, taxes, national standards like the National Electric Code, building codes, materials, methods and techniques, and so much more. IMO there's at least 2 years worth of learning and hands-on time that college could provide these folks, but we aren't doing it. If anything it's getting even more difficult to be in the building trades now that we have solar panels and battery arrays to crank into the mix of building homes and commercial structures. These are not casual labor jobs any more, the days of simply swinging a hammer are over.

Still, there's a lot to say for a college education outside of the building trades. Well-rounded persons, especially moms, are needed as much as ever. We've never invested in our moms, we expect them to just know how to be good at it, but truth is there's a lot to raising kids, planning diets so we don't get obese persons, health matters, and so much more. Being a mom is a full time job, it's time they got factual training rather than just gossip and hearsay.

[tnff]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

In the comments section of the WaPo article are people saying that every service truck they see for plumbing, HVAC, electrical, etc, all have signage that they are hiring. Somewhere along the way we are not training people for these jobs, and I suspect it's also hard to find good training for carpentry, roofing, painting, masonry, landscaping, concrete work, heavy equipment operator and other building trades as well. IIRC in the old days the various unions had training and apprenticeship programs but since most unions are either gone or a mere shadow of their former selves where do the non-college types go for training, especially since some of the for-profit tech training "schools" are a ripoff that leave people deep in debt and with a useless 'credential.' It's a mess. We seem to lack investment in real blue collar training.
..

Once upon a time almost every high school had a shop program that would expose kids to the various trades. And vo-tech high schools designed to begin their training so they could apprentice upon graduation. Those have been dropped in most places in favor of "everyone should go to college."

[WRM20]

Originally Posted by jtab4994

So who is working in all those factories in China and throughout the "developing world"? Why does Nike have factories in the third world that employ an average of 3,000 workers each but their 5 factories in the U.S. only employ 300 each? Nike donated $40 million to BLM but why couldn't they have taken that money and built a factory or a handful of factories in majority Black cities like Newark, Detroit, and Atlanta for a lasting contribution to society? I bet those factories would turn a profit, too.



[cut] You're saying jobs are inefficient but the reason we are having this conversation is because so many people are on disability. How efficient are disability payments? By the way, we are importing millions of new people every year and many of them will be settled by the government in Appalachia. What jobs are they supposed to do? I'm sure many will find their way onto disability.

Why does Nike have factories in China, Viet Nam, and other developing countries? Because the labor costs are 25% or less of what they are here in the US. It's not just factory work that's moved overseas. I know of Fortune 500 companies that have very few back room employees (accountants, IT, etc) here in the US. Why would you pay an American $100k per year when you can hire an equally qualified college graduate for 25 to 30% of that in South America, Central Europe, or Asia?

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

In the comments section of the WaPo article are people saying that every service truck they see for plumbing, HVAC, electrical, etc, all have signage that they are hiring. Somewhere along the way we are not training people for these jobs, and I suspect it's also hard to find good training for carpentry, roofing, painting, masonry, landscaping, concrete work, heavy equipment operator and other building trades as well. IIRC in the old days the various unions had training and apprenticeship programs but since most unions are either gone or a mere shadow of their former selves where do the non-college types go for training, especially since some of the for-profit tech training "schools" are a ripoff that leave people deep in debt and with a useless 'credential.' It's a mess. We seem to lack investment in real blue collar training.

We had a burner service tech come out about 2 years ago. I internally rolled my eyes when this young kid showed up, but it turned out he really knew what he was doing, was very articulate and very thorough in explaining everything to me. I asked where he learned his trade, and he said he went to our local Vo-Tech. I realized that was my tax money being well spent.

Are school de-emphasizing Vo-Tech in favor of the "everybody has to go to college"? Is school administrator performance based on how many kids get accepted at community or state college?

A lot of high school grads just don't know what they want to do and don't have much time or money to figure it all out. Many have doofus parents that are little or no help at all. The military has some training but you have to sign up X years before you get the good stuff. Those who qualify for entry to a 2 or 4 year college can get their eyes opened to the larger world that's out there and along the way figure out what they want to do. Perhaps we taxpayers cover the cost and are paid back by public service of some sort.

Many of the doofus parents are single mothers who have all they can do to hold down a job and keep the kids in school, let alone guide them to a career or to higher education.

I think even the blue collar trades could benefit from 2-4 years of college, to learn their trade as well as how to run a business, hire people, invest in equipment, licensing, insurances, taxes, national standards like the National Electric Code, building codes, materials, methods and techniques, and so much more. IMO there's an easy 4 years worth of learning and hands-on time that college could provide these folks, but we aren't doing it. If anything it's getting even more difficult to be in the building trades now that we have solar panels and battery walls to crank into the mix of building homes and commercial structures. These are not casual labor jobs any more, the days of simply swinging a hammer are over.

I don't know about that. You're asking a guy (let's face it, it's mostly guys) to sit out 2-4 years of earning a living while he takes enrichment classes at college. I do admit I don't know what classes are mandatory at community college for someone who's on a carpentry career path. But my own son, who was a Math major at a state college on a 4-year scholarship nearly wrecked his GPA by purposely neglecting an Art History class that was a mandatory elective. I can picture 19 year old blue collar guys not really paying much attention to courses like that.

Still, there's a lot to say for a college education outside of the building trades. Well-rounded persons, especially moms, are needed as much as ever. We've never invested in our moms, we expect them to just know how to be good at it, but truth is there's a lot to raising kids, planning diets so we don't get obese persons, health matters, and so much more. Being a mom is a full time job, it's time they got factual training rather than just gossip and hearsay.

There is a national crisis among young people in America. Many of them cannot hope to pay back the student loans they took on for college. I think it's high time we turned the focus to non-college track individuals and help them out. They are the ones who will end up addicted to opioids and on permanent disability after the college kids get bailed out by the government.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by WRM20

Why does Nike have factories in China, Viet Nam, and other developing countries? Because the labor costs are 25% or less of what they are here in the US. It's not just factory work that's moved overseas. I know of Fortune 500 companies that have very few back room employees (accountants, IT, etc) here in the US. Why would you pay an American $100k per year when you can hire an equally qualified college graduate for 25 to 30% of that in South America, Central Europe, or Asia?

There is a political solution to that problem. But we have enough bread and circuses for now that voters don't really want to get into it.