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That's not the point of public school uniforms. It's to engender a feeling of community and to stop kids getting bullied or feeling harassed into trends or wearing expensive brands that the family can't afford.
A previous post mentioned security as a good reason for uniforms. I understand uniforms in school. I wore them.
It wasn't about clothes "being ok"; it was, I believe, intended to level the field and not make poorer students feed bad for not dressing as nicely as their richer peers.
Also to keep the focus on education and socialization versus material concerns.
Maybe in grade school. In high school it is easier to separate the haves from have nots. The purse, shoes, jewelry, watch, for starters. I did not come up with this on my own. I used your argument and a couple teachers told me I was wrong.
... And I'll bet suburban Catholic schools in the U.S. would allow boys to wear skirts in 2022. ...
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Originally Posted by YorktownGal
...
No US Catholic school allows boys to wear skirts. The schools are under the control of their archdiocese and not free to make their own decisions.
Not looking for a drawn-out argument over an offhand opinion, but at least one Catholic school in the UK has allowed boys to wear skirts since at least 2017. I stand by my opinion that I wouldn't be surprised if some Catholic schools in affluent areas of the U.S. allow the same thing in 2022. Also, as a matter of fact, not all Catholic schools are under Diocesan control. Some are run by religious orders such as the Jesuits and don't report to the local Bishop.
I think it's important to note distinctions between a traditional 1950's "Catholic school style" and Year 2022 of the Common Era "public school style" uniform.
Current public school "uniforms", at least in my area, consists of school-colored polo/golf shirt and khakis. The golf shirt can be any color as long as it's maroon, white, gray, or black (no logos allowed). Bottoms (pants or skirts) can be any color as long as it's tan, navy, or black. Local Walmarts, Targets, and other stores are well-stocked in these colors.
The Catholic school in our area requires a sweater and tie during the winter, and that's certainly not a requirement in public school. There is a specialized Catholic school vendor that serves all the schools in the area.
Yes, we have that here. My nephew has to wear the tie and sweater in the winter time. Lands' End sells
those types of school uniforms (khakis). I went to Catholic grammar school (and high school). We had to
wear the plaid jumpers, that cross tie and then a vest in the later grades. My nephew's uniforms look so
much more comfortable. Long shorts in the summer, sneakers and the polo shirts. I wish we had that years ago.
In Freshman year at my all girls' high school, we had to wear a gym uniform that defied comprehension.
It was a one piece short sleeved jumper that zipped up the front and we had to have our last names on the back of it. This was the early 80s. I saw a photo of a girl's gym class from the 1950s and they were wearing
dark blue shorts and what looked like a short sleeve white blouse. It looked so much better than what we
wore!
Not looking for a drawn-out argument over an offhand opinion, but at least one Catholic school in the UK has allowed boys to wear skirts since at least 2017. I stand by my opinion that I wouldn't be surprised if some Catholic schools in affluent areas of the U.S. allow the same thing in 2022. Also, as a matter of fact, not all Catholic schools are under Diocesan control. Some are run by religious orders such as the Jesuits and don't report to the local Bishop.
This was way off the topic of uniforms in public schools. I'm going further out to Italy/France!
In Italy, the kids still wear a smock (as a public school uniform) over their clothing
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The puropse of wearing a smock is to protect clothing as well as to reduce obvious social destinctions. This is the same purpose as in other countries where smocks were commonly worn (Belgium, France, Portugal, and Spain). An Italian reader confirms, "Many school districts in Italy chose the smock in order to protect the children's clothing and to reduce the contrast between the varying economic and social condition of the children." Italy until after World War II was a very poor country. Poverty was endemic, especially in southern Italy. Thus it was embarassing for poor children to attend school in old, sometimes tattered clothing. This was all covered up by having the children wear smocks. It also had the advantage of protecting the children's clothes as well as cutting down on laundry which in the days before washing machines was a major undertaking.
The school smock was adopted in France during the early 1870s. They may have been adopted about the same time in Italy. School smocks appear to have been commonly worn in the early 20th century. Such smocks were commonly worn through the 1960s, but became less common for older boys in the 1970s. Smocks are still worn in Italy, unlike many countries like France where they are now rarely seen.
I think a smock could work well in the USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 Scoops
In Freshman year at my all girls' high school, we had to wear a gym uniform that defied comprehension.
It was a one piece short sleeved jumper that zipped up the front and we had to have our last names on the back of it. This was the early 80s.
I wore that too! The only dress code was that silly gym uniform.
A previous post mentioned security as a good reason for uniforms. I understand uniforms in school. I wore them.
In really rough areas (like schools with notable gang activity) I can see that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkalot
Maybe in grade school. In high school it is easier to separate the haves from have nots. The purse, shoes, jewelry, watch, for starters. I did not come up with this on my own. I used your argument and a couple teachers told me I was wrong.
Yeah, you could tell. Especially when it would come to cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtab4994
Not looking for a drawn-out argument over an offhand opinion, but at least one Catholic school in the UK has allowed boys to wear skirts since at least 2017. I stand by my opinion that I wouldn't be surprised if some Catholic schools in affluent areas of the U.S. allow the same thing in 2022. https://catholicherald.co.uk/catholi...o-wear-skirts/
Funny, during the first days of school in August when the classrooms could be very warm we joked about the guys demanding a Uniform Kilt option, as the ladies had the option of either skirts or trousers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtab4994
Also, as a matter of fact, not all Catholic schools are under Diocesan control. Some are run by religious orders such as the Jesuits and don't report to the local Bishop.
It's not that simple. I went to a Catholic HS, and all of the highshools in the diocese were run by an order. Jesuits, Benedictines, Christian Brothers, Lasallians, Dominicans, Sisters of Mercy, etc...but they also fell under the auspices of the archdiocese. To what extent, I don't know. I DO know that if you went to a HS that closed, that the archdiocese would keep the records. We never heard anything about the archdiocese or the board in relation to how the administration ran the school; I assume it was largely hands off. I wouldn't be surprised to see a very liberal (Jesuit, Benedictine, etc...) administration clashing with a very conservative Bishop, but I haven't heard of it actually happening.
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The Archdiocese Catholic School Board is established by the Archbishop to provide guidance, oversight and support for the educational mission of the Archdiocese and the Office of Catholic Schools (OCS). The Board focuses on designated areas, including strategic planning/goal setting, school-related finances, marketing, advancement and policy formation. The Board does not administer the Catholic schools or the OCS, nor does the Board manage individual student or personnel matters.
Funny, during the first days of school in August when the classrooms could be very warm we joked about the guys demanding a Uniform Kilt option, as the ladies had the option of either skirts or trousers.
When my kids were in Catholic school there was no option for boys to wear shorts. Fast forward to just a few years ago and I started noticing boys at the same school wearing shorts in the summer. But not skirts. Oh, a couple of boys my son's age (class of 2013) in high school joined the girls' field hockey team, which was legal and allowed by the school, and they had to wear the same uniform the girls did!
Quote:
It's not that simple. I went to a Catholic HS, and all of the highshools in the diocese were run by an order. Jesuits, Benedictines, Christian Brothers, Lasallians, Dominicans, Sisters of Mercy, etc...but they also fell under the auspices of the archdiocese. To what extent, I don't know. I DO know that if you went to a HS that closed, that the archdiocese would keep the records. We never heard anything about the archdiocese or the board in relation to how the administration ran the school; I assume it was largely hands off. I wouldn't be surprised to see a very liberal (Jesuit, Benedictine, etc...) administration clashing with a very conservative Bishop, but I haven't heard of it actually happening.
Re: the bolded part, another poster just provided two links where that happened to Jesuit schools.
Generally the bishop has the authority to close a Diocesan school, usually due to declining enrollment and lack of funds, whenever he decides to do it. I know; our bishop came down to a special meeting in November 2011 and threatened to close us down if the parents didn't come up with a plan he approved of. We did, and the school is still thriving today. Contrast that with independent Jesuit schools that simply raise tuition when needed to keep the school viable. I could not have afforded to send two kids to Jesuit school but we handled Diocesan school (run by the IHM Sisters FWIW) tuition just fine.
When my kids were in Catholic school there was no option for boys to wear shorts. Fast forward to just a few years ago and I started noticing boys at the same school wearing shorts in the summer. But not skirts. Oh, a couple of boys my son's age (class of 2013) in high school joined the girls' field hockey team, which was legal and allowed by the school, and they had to wear the same uniform the girls did!
Re: the bolded part, another poster just provided two links where that happened to Jesuit schools.
Generally the bishop has the authority to close a Diocesan school, usually due to declining enrollment and lack of funds, whenever he decides to do it. I know; our bishop came down to a special meeting in November 2011 and threatened to close us down if the parents didn't come up with a plan he approved of. We did, and the school is still thriving today. Contrast that with independent Jesuit schools that simply raise tuition when needed to keep the school viable. I could not have afforded to send two kids to Jesuit school but we handled Diocesan school (run by the IHM Sisters FWIW) tuition just fine.
Could your school not also have raised tuition (at least theoretically?)
My point is that the Jesuit schools are Diocesan usually, though there are the "independent" ones. They just tend to be expensive because of the reputation the Jesuits have as educators, so they "can" charge more. And if the Jesuit school had declining enrollment and shaky financials the Bishop could act the same, except that their extensive network of well heeled donors support and reputation means it's unlikely to happen.
In the case of Brebuf, as I understand it, they simply said "We're taking our ball and going home" and had were competent (well funded) enough not to need the diocese and told the diocese to take a hike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
USA's 59 Jesuit high schools are independent up to a point.
And while it remains to be seen in the Worcester school, at Brebuf the local bishop was overruled by Rome. I'd imagine in this case the bishop in Massachusetts is as well. Especially since it only regards two flags as opposed to staff in same sex marriages.
Could your school not also have raised tuition (at least theoretically?)
Nope. That would have given a number of families a reason to flee for public school. This was 2011, just after the 2008-09 financial crisis and Great Recession, and to top it off the school had just taken on a $5 million mortgage backed by the Diocese to build a new Jr/Sr high school building. This is the Scranton, PA diocese and the school is Notre Dame of East Stroudsburg. We held the line on tuition increases for 3 years after the Bishop dropped the bomb.
Trust me, we had a lot of local movers and shakers with business experience on board, and we did it the right way.
Quote:
My point is that the Jesuit schools are Diocesan usually, though there are the "independent" ones. They just tend to be expensive because of the reputation the Jesuits have as educators, so they "can" charge more. And if the Jesuit school had declining enrollment and shaky financials the Bishop could act the same, except that their extensive network of well heeled donors support and reputation means it's unlikely to happen.
Not to belabor the point, but for example Scranton Prep is an independent Jesuit school that is not listed or mentioned on the Scranton Diocese website. They do what they do, and the Bishop of Scranton oversees his own schools. Maybe some Jesuit-run schools are different. https://www.dioceseofscranton.org/find-a-school/
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