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It must start in high school. Rather, no later than high school. BTW, I didn't say "technical processes," I said "technological processes." There is a difference.
Right.
I didn't say that. I said, specifically, "technological."
I also didn't say that.
If that 36% was actually in STEM rather than mostly arts and humanities...and the lower end of arts and humanities at that.
But the problem comes earlier, in high school, where the system is set up as though 100% of students are going to college. That's why most high schools only have college prep curricula and not the robust technology-prep curricula for the >60% of students who will never get bachelor's degrees.
Other countries that have "free college" don't just have free university...they also have free technological training (what they also call "college") for their majority that aren't getting university degrees. They don't teach at the lower levels only for university. They make the distinction much earlier and start teaching earlier in that direction.
I can't find data on how many STEM vs humanities degrees other countries produce from simple google searches. I can find the U.S.:
So at first glance, it looks like 1/3rd of all our degrees are two major fields - business and health care. A little more than a third if you count biology and biomedical sciences in that. Health care is a STEM. So that leaves the other 65% split between literally everything else, of which there are about 250 majors to choose from.
Can you definitively prove to me that the problem with education is not enough STEM and too much humanities? The reason college is so expensive is because of philosophy class? The reason no one has jobs is because of philosophy class?
I'm skeptical of that.
I recently inherited my uncle's papers. He kept a lot of his college notes in boxes. He went to Princeton University from 1959-1963, majored in economics. What struck me, were how easy his STEM classes were. The stuff he was doing in chemistry class -- at PRINCETON, mind you -- was similar to what I did in 10th grade high school chemistry.
What was harder, were his humanities. He was reading material in literature, history, etc.. and wow ESPECIALLY foreign language, that was far FAR beyond what I did in undergrad college. The difficulty of what he did in 200-level French blew all the language classes I ever took out of the water. I would have failed his French classes, HARD. His liberal arts & social sciences such as political science, etc... were also considerably harder & required more challenging readings than what I had in college in the 00s. Reminded me more of what I had in grad school.
If anything, from what evidence I have of past experience, we HAVE been focusing a lot of STEM, and done so by considerably reducing the rigor of reading and writing intensive liberal art disciplines.
Last edited by redguard57; 08-28-2022 at 03:32 PM..
It's gotten so expensive that people question the value.
We are going to a lot of colleges fold in the next 5-10 years. A lot. And some of them will bw big names. Like, major state systems will go into financial exigency, lay off half their staff, etc...
The loan forvmgiveness won't make peoplenwant to go to college. All it will do is prove to everyone that there's no point. The education is too expensive now and the marketplace doesn't reward it, to the extent that if you go, you'll never pay off your loans and you'll need a bailout. So you won't go.
There are other points of view on the bold above. See for example:
Like other Great Society programs, federal student loans and grants were initially aimed at helping low-income Americans. They have since become another all-you-can-eat entitlement. Its costs grow on autopilot as lawmakers boost subsidies in the name of making higher education more affordable, but in reality doing the opposite.
Higher Education today has little financial incentive to ensure that their graduates have in-demand skills and education. Universities are paid up front cash-on-the-barrel-head, and our government is now writing off the cost on the back end.
Quote:
The best way to reduce costs is to change the financial incentives for colleges. Former Education Secretary Bill Bennett once suggested that schools be required to take an equity stake of 10% to 20% in student loans.
I don't know if the above is the best way - there are other ways to give universities proper incentives.
My favorite take on this is that it will enable people spend that loan money on other things thereby spurring economic growth. So would paying off everyone's car loan...
"My mortgage identifies as a student loan" has become quite the meme.
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
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Older bro, P'67. Also economics. from public HS. Humanities and pining for his HS gf almost sunk him. At that time, students from private prep schools clearly had an advantage over publics. He had National Defense Loans. I don't know the particulars.
DS went to near Ivy, engineering. '06 class. He had IB and more than held his own, about 25-30% of class were from well known prep schools. I had him take the maximum FFEL unsubsidized stafford (his UGMA collapsed in 2002 even though a balanced portfolio, in the aftermath of 9/11 and the tech bubble).
He completed his MS-CS and international internships in 2009, barely finding a job parttime & below market. I understand how grads in the early 2000's , 2007-12, had employment problems and had to defer payments.
YLMV
Last edited by leastprime; 08-28-2022 at 06:25 PM..
no it won't.........houses will still be out of reach!
Look at it this way, if Biden gave people 10K extra to buy a house...........could they? Nope the recent rate hikes just pushed that dream further down the block.
If the federal government gave people $10K extra to buy a house, all house sellers would respond -- quite rationally --by raising prices by $10K.
There's no need to be a jerk. Student loans were the only way I and many people were able to attend college. I'm a first generation college student.
1. Student loans are not the only way to attend college.
2. I’m a first generational college graduate. A black one.
3. Everyone has a sob story. My father was a mailman, my mother a social worker, and my sister dropped out of high school. I used to flip burgers and now I’m an Air Force veteran contractor.
No one forced me, or anyone else, to take out loans we couldn’t pay back. Period.
Your sympathy or sob story doesn’t pay my bills or boost my credit. That’s my responsibility and mine alone. It’s called being an adult.
This isn't to help those with college loan debt. It's intended to divide the populace. They are not interested in helping anyone. They are not going to save you. The elite only think about the elite. divide, divide, divide.
If the federal government gave people $10K extra to buy a house, all house sellers would respond -- quite rationally --by raising prices by $10K.
There is no indication that this is not a one-time deal.
However, it's unfortunate that this relief did not come with plans to prevent this from happening again in a few years, such as removing the lenders' bankruptcy protection.
States which follow the federal treatment here will likewise exclude debt forgiveness from their own state income tax bases. But, for a variety of reasons, not every state does that. There are at least six relevant interactions with the Internal Revenue Code (IRC) for purposes of the treatment of student loan debt cancelation. States can:
Conform to the current version of the IRC with ARPA (exempt)
Conform to the current version of the IRC but decouple from ARPA (taxable)
Not fully conform to current IRC but bring in the relevant ARPA provision (exempt)
Not fully conform to the current IRC but separately exclude student debt cancelation (exempt)
Conform to a pre-ARPA version of the IRC (taxable)
Selectively conform to the IRC or adopt independent definition of income (taxable)
Preliminarily, it appears that 13 states have the potential to tax discharged student loan debt, though the final count could be significantly smaller if states make legislative changes or administratively determine that the debt forgiveness can be excluded, or if conformity dates are updated retroactively.
Preliminarily, it appears that 13 states have the potential to tax discharged student loan debt, though the final count could be significantly smaller if states make legislative changes or administratively determine that the debt forgiveness can be excluded, or if conformity dates are updated retroactively.
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