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There will not be a positive or even possible alternative education discussion, as it's not wise to bite the hand that feeds you. Whether currently feeding at the trough, or via pension.
Same in private industry, the bosses who were abusive and trampled their employees and peers and left a lot of bloodshed (some literally). Will go to their grave justified, in their own eyes. How else could they go on living?
Let them gloat on their grand accomplishments, someone else is picking up the pieces and will make the necessary changes to improve the outcomes. We already know who won't. (Or didn't when they could have). Their commitment and priorities (self) are very clear to the rest of us.
Some of the ones who are most vocally opposed to public services or any sort of relief for the working man are career government employees on this website. People who have literally been on the government teet for most of their lives.
You should keep your political slant reserved for the P&OC forum, because this is the Education forum.
Then stop talking about PPP grants. They have nothing to do with Education.
Quote:
I don't think that anybody believes that college makes you inherently smarter. IQ =/= GPA (a performance metric, not an IQ gauge). If done correctly, the college experience does expand on your critical thinking skills and broaden your horizons beyond whatever potentially myopic frame of reference you were derived from.
I see a lack of this all the time from people who spew out nonsense while having absolutely no self-awareness or wherewithal to understand something outside their small bubble of reality--because they've never been exposed to anything else. Of course, they don't see it, because they're usually too dense or isolated. When you mix in some narcissism or sociopathy, it's a very dangerous combination. Because then you have people who are not only ignorant about that which they speak, they have zero empathy for others and think very highly of their own opinions. But I'd rather deal with a dumb narcissist/sociopath than a smart one.
I am not trying to get you mad. I'm just saying lots of people go to college who have no business going to college and they won't get good jobs if they happen to graduate after 5 or 6 years.
Then stop talking about PPP grants. They have nothing to do with Education.
I am not trying to get you mad. I'm just saying lots of people go to college who have no business going to college and they won't get good jobs if they happen to graduate after 5 or 6 years.
Stop it. You're the one who brought up all these reasons why we shouldn't provide debt relief to people who make mistakes or failed to secure the outcomes they desired, and I simply pointed out that we do it all the time. I guess college grads/students just aren't the "right type" of people, amirite?
Now, to address your second point. I'll bite on that. Sure, some of those people probably didn't belong in college (which has nothing to do with the debt relief they'll be receiving). But you can blame that on all the wise elders who pushed them in that direction as a way out of their current situation. What's the fix? Well, that's TBD. We probably need parents and schools to better inform their students of their most viable options outside of high school. For some, that will most definitely be college. For others, that will likely need to be some sort of technical school. And for even some others, it will probably be something much less conventional. But keep in mind this is not an easy fix. For one, most of these parents don't know any better themselves.
In another thread, I see how you mentioned that you are very hands on with your son/daughter's college finances, going so far as rolling their loan into your mortgage via a HELOC. Most of the people we're talking about here could only dream of being so fortunate to have that sort of handholding and guidance from their parents. Your first step in trying to better understand this situation is to try to develop some empathy for someone who isn't nearly as fortunate as your own child. You're a grown adult comparing yourself and your choices to 17-21 year olds who may very well be 1st gen college students, who have enough on their plates with school work let alone figuring out the NPV/IRR on this investment.
If you can't do that, then this discussion is over. I'm not interested in discussing this matter with someone who has absolutely no empathy or understanding of this matter outside of their small bubble. Another fun thing about being a relatively successful college grad is that I've been on both sides; I've been poor and now I'm not. I know what it's like to be poor and be a 1st gen college student. I know the struggles that one can endure, and I sure as hell feel for people when they are blindly trying to navigate a new frontier.
In another thread, I see how you mentioned that you are very hands on with your son/daughter's college finances, going so far as rolling their loan into your mortgage via a HELOC. Most of the people we're talking about here could only dream of being so fortunate to have that sort of handholding and guidance from their parents. Your first step in trying to better understand this situation is to try to develop some empathy for someone who isn't nearly as fortunate as your own child. You're a grown adult comparing yourself and your choices to 17-21 year olds who may very well be 1st gen college students, who have enough on their plates with school work let alone figuring out the NPV/IRR on this investment.
If you can't do that, then this discussion is over.
I have a problem with my two adult sons being included in the 43 million getting across-the-board relief from the government (me, the taxpayer) when they don't need it. I can dig up the posts if you want, but I've said that I wish there was some other means testing beyond the $125k AGI cap.
I myself was from the "first generation" in my working class family to go to college. But it was affordable back in the 70's. Many of today's first generation college students are being given reckless advice and being saddled with debt they may never be able to pay off. How about some empathy for them? How about the educated adults in their lives, the guidance counselors and college admissions officers using a little discretion? If a college career is meant for them they'll eventually find their way there perhaps after a little community college and work.
I have a problem with my two adult sons being included in the 43 million getting across-the-board relief from the government (me, the taxpayer) when they don't need it. I can dig up the posts if you want, but I've said that I wish there was some other means testing beyond the $125k AGI cap.
I myself was from the "first generation" in my working class family to go to college. But it was affordable back in the 70's. Many of today's first generation college students are being given reckless advice and being saddled with debt they may never be able to pay off. How about some empathy for them? How about the educated adults in their lives, the guidance counselors and college admissions officers using a little discretion? If a college career is meant for them they'll eventually find their way there perhaps after a little community college and work.
Who do you think I'm talking about if not these specific people?
Was the $125k/$250k AGI means testing the most optimal choice in this matter? I don't know, but I can say that it's going to have a tremendous impact on the same people you're referring to above.
While I paid my loans off awhile ago, I did receive a Pell grant, so I would have qualified for up to $20k in forgiveness. That would have been a tremendous amount of help to my current and future financial wellbeing as it would have paid off nearly half my loans.
Now, keep in mind, this problem has been looming for quite some time, and only one side came through with an actual solution. I'm sure the rest of America would have been interested in seeing a counter-proposal, assuming one actually existed. But let's be real, it didn't.
Another thing that schools need to be better about is career advice post graduation. I went to a pretty good school, and their career center was a complete laughing stock. I probably could have applied for better paying jobs, but I didn't really know what I should pursue at the time. If I had gotten into a good career track out the gate, imagine what that could have done for my earning potential later in life. But, because I didn't know anything about careers, I got taken advantage of early on; undervalued and underpaid. If it wasn't for job hopping for better opportunities, I probably would be lamenting my student loans still today. It took me about five years post graduation to get a good grip on the job market and my career track and my value. Thank god I had the fortitude and wherewithal to do that and make up for lost time.
Who do you think I'm talking about if not these specific people?
Was the $125k/$250k AGI means testing the most optimal choice in this matter? I don't know, but I can say that it's going to have a tremendous impact on the same people you're referring to above.
While I paid my loans off awhile ago, I did receive a Pell grant, so I would have qualified for up to $20k in forgiveness. That would have been a tremendous amount of help to my current and future financial wellbeing as it would have paid off nearly half my loans.
Now, keep in mind, this problem has been looming for quite some time, and only one side came through with an actual solution. I'm sure the rest of America would have been interested in seeing a counter-proposal, assuming one actually existed. But let's be real, it didn't.
The problem is, this isn't a solution. It's a feel good band-aid on a sucking chest wound. Do we stand to benefit from it? Yes, my oldest is still paying of college loans. But the fact that doesn't make it right and it shouldn't have happened. That's right. Someone who stands to benefit from it says it shouldn't have been done.
College debt isn't even the real problem. The real problem is twofold -- too many people going to college who shouldn't and the rapid increase in college costs. Much of which is driven by the reduction in state funds for public colleges over the past 30 years or so. Those are the issues we should be focused on, not a temporary patch that doesn't help yesterday's students or tomorrow's. Just today's.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff
The problem is, this isn't a solution. ...The real problem is twofold -- ....
Multi fold...
1) the schools are not preparing studens for college
2) The schools are not preparing students for careers
3) The schools are not even preparing students to be able to get entry level jobs
4) The school cannot provide guidance for careers or continuing education, because the schools are not engaged in the workforce needs (and the USA does not have a workforce strategy)
5) Schools are inefficiently staffed and managed (and no defined and measurable purpose or objective)
6) - 101) ... probably hundreds of issues (including society, parents, culture...)
System is broken.
But we have many EDUCATED people who could fix it. (Where are they? )
School/Education truly ISN'T for everybody. The U.S. needs to do like China, and identify at an early age which kids are fit for school/learning/education and which aren't, and put the ones who aren't academically inclined on the path to learning a trade and doing something productive like manual or factory work.
I recall when I was growing, U.S. schools actually did more of that, but then at some point in the 90s, they phased out most of the "Vo-Tech" classes and programs because it became all the rage to push every kid down the 4 year university path, and to shame those who would have preferred to learn a good, solid trade and work with their hands.
Heck, a lot of trade jobs pay way more than going to college for 4+ years to rack up thousands of dollars in debt only to come out with a degree in something like Sociology or Art, where you are doomed to have to work at McDonald's or Starbucks with your college degree, just to try to make ends meet.
I do see your point, but I think this is flawed logic - and frankly goes against everything America stands for.
The beauty of this country, as opposed to China, is that ALL people have the freedom to better themselves. Do you really want the government telling you your child cannot further their education? Even if they may not be as smart as the next kid, but they have a drive and determination that is unmatched?
Sure, college "may" not be for everyone, but we should all have the freedom to make that determination for ourselves. Not leave it in the hands of a corrupt government.
The New York Times did an entire newspaper section on the question of "What is school for?" with essays contributed on a dozen different subjects
This particular person, Bryan Caplan, thinks that school is mostly pointless. Among other things, it doesn't seem to have crossed his mind that a major thing that school does is introduce kids to areas that may go on to interest them. It's worth noting that the author is a university professor, so clearly he benefitted by schooling.
I totally disagree with him but thought it might be of interest.
School Is for Wasting Time and Money
I have deep doubts about the intellectual and social value of schooling. My argument in a nutshell: First, everyone leaves school eventually. Second, most of what you learn in school doesn’t matter after graduation. Third, human beings soon forget knowledge they rarely use.
When schools shuttered, they stopped performing their sole undeniably valuable function: providing day care. In-person schooling allows parents to work full-time without distraction. In-person schooling allows parents to take care of infants and elders. In-person schooling allows parents to finish their household chores. And in-person schooling allows parents to relax. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/o...knowledge.html
I partially agree and partially disagree.
I don't think most parents are equipped to teach reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic. That is best a collective function and learned in school. I feel that people start high school, basically, as children and emerge as near-adults. College, and for me law school, could be compressed from a collective seven years to perhaps a collective five years. In law I have to re-teach most of what of substance is "learned."
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(Where are they? 
